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ItalianStallion
Guest
if you guys want pictures i recommend going on www.flickr.com and typing in the name of a horse and there are some cracking pictures that people take.
Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced
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One thing strikes me even more forcibly watching the replay tonight is once he got going how quickly he picked MCM up inside the final furlong - struggling ? no way
MCM got no less than 15 cracks of the whip in about a furlong and a half .
MCM got no less than 15 cracks of the whip in about a furlong and a half .
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Shadow Leader
At the Start
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I think I counted four cracks for STS. Most of that was stick waving anyway to wake him up.
That's a real stretch to say that. You said going into the race that STS would "laugh" at Mastercraftsman... It didn't look much like laughter to me. They were both in a horse race.
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Quite agree a very high limit. STS received an RPR of 131 for that, just a little below the excellent 134 in the Eclipse. This makes his the best 3-y-o since Dalakhani on the same mark in 2003... as yet short of the level reached by the likes of Peintre Celebre, Montjeu and Dancing Brave.
I think the connections of STS will be reluctant to take on Fame again (despite their admirable policy of exposing him to date), as there is too much at stake. Fame is worth backing for the Irish Champion Stakes if only for the fact that STS is less likely to take part.
Even if they do meet in that I'd be quite strong on Fame to beat him and even more bullish in the Arc.
It's possible that Fame or STS could yet finish the season on a higher rating than 134. If Fame beats STS he could finish the season as top-rated colt.
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Kinane said that he took a pull just after he had got through the gap between the pacemakers. This was a mistake because Murtagh had just got stuck into MCM. Those two things, plus the fact that MCM is a very good horse, made it look like he struggled to pick him up when the reality is he gave him a 3 length start a furlong and half from home. No other horse has managed to pass MCM once he's got first run and he is a four time group 1 winner. MCM had the race run exactly to suit and I imagine it was exactly as Ballydoylle planned. Despite all of that Sea the Stars has picked him up and won going away.
I hope there is a flood of money for Fame and Glory so STS goes off a decent price in the Irish Champion.
The Arc is the one race where I think he will be beatable.
I hope there is a flood of money for Fame and Glory so STS goes off a decent price in the Irish Champion.
The Arc is the one race where I think he will be beatable.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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- Aug 2, 2005
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About as much chance as I have of beating Usain Bolt over 100m.
At the odds Fame must be the bet. I'd agree that STS perhaps has the edge on a fast surface at 10 furlongs, but anything else and and Fame is my strong choice. At 12 furlongs with a bit of give STS won't beat him.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
If STS runs in the Irish Champion he won't win the Arc, period.
Mention that he could go to Ascot for the QE II to get decent ground. (Fame wouldn't be in that race either.)
If so come on Freddie bring her over !
The weather in Ireland appears to have been much worse than here this summer - what chance fast ground at Leopardstown ?
Not great... which is part of the reason why I've already backed Fame for the Irish Champion. A no show from STS would see Fame go odds on.
EC1
On a break
i'm getting the feeling you like F&G Steve 
The strong chance of soft ground is much the best reason for backing F & G now for the Irish Champion as he will be odds on if STS does not turn up . If STS does run 7-4 looks much too short - should be no shorter than 5-2 I reckon on form and the risk of STS's defection must be being factored into the price.
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That would be true if it were not for the fact that Fame is going to beat him...
7/4 on a winner is big enough for me.That would be true if it were not for the fact that Fame is going to beat him...
As they will only ever meet again on STS's ground he won't beat him - STS just has too much speed for F & G - F & G was just behind him 3 out in the Derby and STS left him for dead .
Over a shorter trip even with a battery of pacemakers the same thing will happen STS was completely on top at the end of an extended 10f at York .
There is only one way F & G will beat him and that is if STS is over the top . STS on top form - F & G will follow RVW and MCM into 2nd at best .
This of course does not account for the improvement in Fame And Glory since the Derby and the plain untruth that he does not have the speed to cope with STS, which people seem happy enough to rehearse (until they line up no doubt).
I think that is what is so interesting, if that is obvious to us, why is it not obvious to them?
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
He's had one run since the Derby - a romp in the Irish equivalent with the form being let down badly since by Golden Sword amongst others. I've yet to see any evidence that FAG has improved since Epsom and backing him against STS to me would revolve around him not handling the undulations in the Derby and having a true, proper stamina testing 12f.
Why is it a " plain untruth" I have seen absolutely nothing in any of F & G's races to suggest he has anything like STS's speed.
1 They evidently knew he was not a miler that is why he went Ballysax and Derrinstown
2 RVW was so clearly their No 1 on Derby day F & G was an afterthought
3 The Irish Derby form has turned out very badly the Eclipse form brilliantly . I do not regard the Irish Derby as being any evidence of improvement . GS was flattered by his Derby form as can be seen when he was blown away in the KG and sold on, Masterofthehorse was beginning his dramatic decline in form .
So far from it being a " plain untruth " there is no evidence at all that Fame and Glory has the speed to cope with STS - all the evidence points the other way . The reason he is being " saved " for Leopardstown is I suggest clear . They know there is a very good chance the ground will prevent STS turning up and will give him a great chance of getting a 10f G1 win they want for his stallion value . They knew he could not handle STS over 10f on fast ground at Sandown and York!
Only STS being over the top gives F & G a chance and I agree that I would back RVW to beat F & G over 10f too .
It's far from obvious to me.
Because he's not a miler it doesn't mean he lacks speed. The two are far from mutually exclusive.
Because the form (among the also rans) of the Irish Derby is not the strongest does not mean that the performance of the winner was not brilliant. On the day he won the Irish Derby that was the highest recorded rating recorded by a three-year-old all season - above STS's 2,000 Guineas or Derby performances. Fame has not run since but apparently has improved again.
So he does have brilliance and he does have speed that he is able to use to effect in middle distance races.
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If he was so rated on the basis that GS and MOTH ran to their Derby form it was plainly wrong . It was an impressive performance against a poor field it cannot be regarded as brilliant nor is it evidence of anywhere near STS's level of speed.