Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced

The day I cottoned on to Sea the S was at leopardstown in the muck.I think he could still win in the soft but they have rightly avoided it with his long campaign in mind. The Irish champion is a truer run race (as is the English version) I would prefer to see him at either of these rather than the arc (regardless of the prestige) as I think it would bring out the best in him. Than on to the Classic. I don't know how this would work out date wise though.
 
Quote (Grey):
If Sea The Stars had been put in training in France, Hong Kong or anywhere else other than than Ireland or the UK, this would already be another vintage year for Coolmore.

Quote (Hamm): He wasn't so what is the point of these 'if's?

It's another way of saying that this has turned into an exceptional year on the flat.


Quote (Grey):
By the way, if today's race had been run at Leopardstown or the Curragh some would have labelled it an uncompetitive Irish Gr1. The same people will say it about the Irish Champion Stakes and lobby for STS to run in the Arc. They already said it about his intended run in the Irish Derby.

Quote (Hamm): Clearly you are referring to me - why not be straight and come out and say who you mean? The ambiguity in your post does you no favours.

Galileo is right, I had plenty of other people in mind. Your insistence that I should address my remarks to you is presumptious.

Quote (Hamm): Please read my earlier post where I asked has the race now become a farce, and also read my post where I said I would love him to go for the Irish Champion which is one of my favourite races of the year.

The Juddmonte was certainly at risk of being a farce, but it was saved from being one by the strength of the pace laid on by the Ballydoyle bit players. Obviously the size of the field was disappointing, but who was missing who might have beaten the winner?

Quote (Hamm): The only doubt I expressed is the difficulty in winning the Irish Champion 18 days after a race such as yesterday's, run against a very good horse on ast ground - I will however take on board that Oxx left something to work on, and some people better placed than I (those at the track for example) say the horse is absolutely fine, and should have no problems turning up in peak condition for Leopardstown.

Plenty have done this particular double. Let's hope the ground doesn't cuts up rough at Leopardstown.
 
Shadow Leader said:
I think you're slightly missing the point I'm making, Steve. Sea The Stars only does what he absolutely has to, and spends half the race dossing. In fact throughout the race he looked to me like he was having a lob along the gallops at home! So he's not going to put in ratings-busting performances from the point of view that in running his race he confirms the 10lb difference over the horse he is racing against each time.

The thing is, we don't know how good he is as he keeps a bit for himself and doesn't win by more than he has to. I certainly don't think he has anything to worry about in Fame And Glory.
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I think this is a good point that you make Shads, we don't really know how good a horse is until it is tested to its limits... but I think we are getting close to that point now.

Oxx said yesterday:

"I was worried. Two furlongs down I thought how far is he going to win? but then he had to struggle".

I've backed Fame Anf Glory for the Irish Champion Stakes this morning and am feeling bullish about it.

Also had a bit of a splurge on Denman for the Gold Cup this morning.
 
SteveM said:
I think this is a good point that you make Shads, we don't really know how good a horse is until it is tested to its limits... but I think we are getting close to that point now.

Oxx said yesterday:

"I was worried. Two furlongs down I thought how far is he going to win? but then he had to struggle".

I've backed Fame Anf Glory for the Irish Champion Stakes this morning and am feeling bullish about it.

Also had a bit of a splurge on Denman for the Gold Cup this morning.
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Ha!! What made you think of backing Denman?!! "That See the Stars looks beatable, i know, il back Denman!!" Nice!
 
I can't really see where people are thinking Sea The Stars struggled a bit yesterday, despite Oxx's quote. I can see your point Steve, I just think that the 'struggling' bit came through the horse dossing about, not concentrating and so having to be woken up and asked firmly to go about his job, as opposed to him struggling ability wise.
 
Shadow Leader said:
I can't really see where people are thinking Sea The Stars struggled a bit yesterday, despite Oxx's quote. I can see your point Steve, I just think that the 'struggling' bit came through the horse dossing about, not concentrating and so having to be woken up and asked firmly to go about his job, as opposed to him struggling ability wise.
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In fairness the horse has never "struggled" or "dossed" to get to the front in any of his previous races....if he has "dossed" it has been when he gets to the front.

He was a comfortable winner on the line but Kinane needed 3 cracks of the whip to get past the leader....not something that was needed before.
 
If John Oxx had concerns, as he stated on ATR this morning, then I think it is fair to say that there were signs that the horse might not pick up in time to get to Mastercraftsman.
 
I had a horrible thought for a few strides that STS wasn't going to reel MCM in but I'd have blamed the jockey rather than the horse. The feeling wasn't unlike what I felt when Mercer started getting serious on the Brigadier and the gap to Roberto wasn't closing.
 
Shadow Leader said:
I can't really see where people are thinking Sea The Stars struggled a bit yesterday, despite Oxx's quote. I can see your point Steve, I just think that the 'struggling' bit came through the horse dossing about, not concentrating and so having to be woken up and asked firmly to go about his job, as opposed to him struggling ability wise.
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I think "struggled" is a bit strong too, but he certainly didn't have the 10lb superiority that was suggested going into the race.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I had a horrible thought for a few strides that STS wasn't going to reel MCM in but I'd have blamed the jockey rather than the horse. The feeling wasn't unlike what I felt when Mercer started getting serious on the Brigadier and the gap to Roberto wasn't closing.
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Yes your heart certainly does sink in those wading through treacle moments.
 
SteveM said:
I think "struggled" is a bit strong too, but he certainly didn't have the 10lb superiority that was suggested going into the race.
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I think if Oxx wanted to he could of asked Mick to hard and then you would of saw this mythical 10lbs superiority.

The horse is so superior he doesnt have to do a lot to win his races and thats good because we don't want another George Washington and its important to not thrash him about but let him do things in his own time and get to stud one piece of masterfully crafted animal.
 
ItalianStallion said:
I think if Oxx wanted to he could of asked Mick to hard and then you would of saw this mythical 10lbs superiority.

The horse is so superior he doesnt have to do a lot to win his races and thats good because we don't want another George Washington and its important to not thrash him about but let him do things in his own time and get to stud one piece of masterfully crafted animal.
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In my opinion they are getting to STS (and I take on board that he is probably the type that is never going to win by too far). RVW cut down STS's winning margin each successive time they met. Mastercraftsman cut down the four lengths or so he was beaten in the Guineas to a length. With the best yet to come I'm quite bullish that an improved Fame And Glory can nail him.

What a thriller in prospect... I'm on Fame this morning and will build on that.
 
I don't really understand where people are getting this 10lbs in hand from. It wasn't a great ride, accelerating, slowing down and then losing first run, but he was practically all out. The so called being well on top at the end was as much to my eyes Murtagh stopping riding when beaten, similar to frankie on fantastic light in the king george.
 
In a small field with only one realistic opponent its going to be unlikely that a straightforward 10lbs beating is going to occur. Especilaly with this horse. The focus will be on getting past that one opponent of course and if the horse isnt one to gallop the opposition into the ground, well, you arent going to get 10 lengths are you? Its case unproven isnt it?

Dancing Brave didnt beat opponents by 10lbs either. Didnt have to...

I agree with Shadow leaders assessment of his concentration.

It might not be STS's fitness that will be an issue going forward but his mind. Seriously hope not. This is the most exciting flat horse (along with Zarakava maybe) ive seen for a very very long time

Cornelius on R5 suggested hes definately best since the Brave. Anyone agree?
 
SteveM said:
I think "struggled" is a bit strong too, but he certainly didn't have the 10lb superiority that was suggested going into the race.
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Yes he did! He was cantering while MCM was being ridden along, lost three lengths and momentum thanks to Kinane then closed it up and won cosily in the end by a length or so.
 
I would argue the easiest race to win by a long way is a two runner affair. Because when beaten the loser stops riding, unlike one where he needs to ride out for the places.
 
I think perhaps he may have a little of what I saw of Giants' Causeway mentality when he was running: I've hit the front, isn't anyone coming at me, no okay then I'm done, oh no look there's someone I'll just rev up a bit and stick my head out - naa naa I win. Didn't do any more than he had to. STS shook up by Kinane maybe because he was a bit 'bored' - only 4 runners? Who knows what may or may not be going on inside his head but whatever it is, he is a supreme racehorse and whether he wins by 1 length or 10, he wins.
 
clivex said:
In a small field with only one realistic opponent its going to be unlikely that a straightforward 10lbs beating is going to occur. Especilaly with this horse. The focus will be on getting past that one opponent of course and if the horse isnt one to gallop the opposition into the ground, well, you arent going to get 10 lengths are you? Its case unproven isnt it?

Dancing Brave didnt beat opponents by 10lbs either. Didnt have to...

I agree with Shadow leaders assessment of his concentration.

It might not be STS's fitness that will be an issue going forward but his mind. Seriously hope not. This is the most exciting flat horse (along with Zarakava maybe) ive seen for a very very long time

Cornelius on R5 suggested hes definately best since the Brave. Anyone agree?
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Either STS is overrated or Mastercraftsman underrated, but the two horses that raced yesterday are not 10lb different.

He's not yet the best since Dancing Brave (who was 140 rated). The likes of Montjeu and Peintre Celebre would have something to say about it.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Yes he did! He was cantering while MCM was being ridden along, lost three lengths and momentum thanks to Kinane then closed it up and won cosily in the end by a length or so.
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That's just rose-coloured specs old mate. He was close to his extent yesterday.
 
Gareth, I'm not 'disagreeing' with anyone on here in particular, more the Superhorse status that the media's accredited to what is a very good horse, but, as he's going-sensitive, and beat one horse in a match race, not at pinnacle status. I just think one needn't get excited about overcoming MASTERCRAFTSMAN under these circumstances.
 
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