Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced

I remember we discussed Montjeu's form at length at the time. My highest rating for him as a 3yo was 133+ in the Arc.

He had nothing of the calibre of F&G to beat at four, at least in the first two-thirds of the season. I only have him on 131++ for the King George (via Fantastic Light on his previous best of 125 and Beat All's pb of 119) but there can be no doubt he had an awful lot in reserve.

He was pretty well beaten in the Arc but they blamed the fast ground - so on some people's criteria he cannot be considered a 'great' - but he was beaten again (by Kalanisi) when he got his ground in the Champion Stakes. He was further behind Kalanisi in the USA after that.

The great mystery therefore remains. Just how much did he really have in reserve at Ascot. Sadly, it means he's well down the list of my top horses as I believe he should be right up there alongside anything bar Sea Bird, Hawk Wing, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Dubai Millennium, Lindop, etc. etc.
 
Galileo said:
I think it was probably the most remarkable days flat racing - possibly racing full stop - I was ever around to witness. The horse was cheered leaving the stalls and the moment he and F&G locked horns off the turn the roars were deafening....while the cheers he got in the winners enclosure has the hairs standing on the back of my neck.
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Glad you enjoyed it. Very glad for Oxx he got to run his horse in Ireland this year.

Quite simply the best horse I've ever seen, and looks a cut above Dancing Brave (who i've only seen on video). If he gets 135 for the Eclipse, he must get very close to 140 for a 2 and a half length beating of Fame and Glory, and a 5 length beating of Mastercraftsman, on ground that should have in theory suited both of them (i think the ground issue has been massively overplayed though). It was more how he beat them, content to let Fame into the lead and then swept past him with the minimum of fuss. Kinane never used the whip, and never got mildly serious. He must be value for another 2-3 lengths. Just incredible. A joy to see.

Credit to Oxx who has done superbly well to keep him in top form throughout the season; a near impossible feat given the races he has contested.
 
SteveM said:
I'll see you there if you're going.
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I'm definitely there.

How do you judge the chances of both in the Arc?

For me (i haven't backed Sea the Stars for the Arc), it looked like Sea the Stars would win by further, the further they went.
 
Ardross said:
Coolmore are the only operation with horses able to give him a race and he is running in all the races they want to win . I don't quite see why that is so laudable . What has been annoying is the endless stream of excuses - RVW's feet. F & G being unsuited by the pace , MCM not quite staying ....

No STS is just much better than them .
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I agree he is much better than them, but I think Coolmore come out of this season with (in addition to one potentially great and 2 very good horses) an awful lot of credit for not seeking to avoid STS and add up Group 1 wins for thier horses. I would disagree that they have made excuses - O'Brien has bestowed more than enough praise on Sea the Stars at every opportunity, and did so again on Friday. After each defeat he has been open with regard to how good STS is, and says they look forward to taking him on again. As good as STS has been, Coolmore and their horses have allowed us to see just how good he is.
 
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I don't compile my own ratings nor do I fully understand dosage and in truth usually only give credence to such aids when they confirm my own opinions.Brigadier Gerard was the first horse that I ever saw that could be called a great, Dancing Brave with his amazing burst of acceleration was the next and won me a lot of money.

Then came Montjeu, a horse I backed before he had ever run and was extremely fortunate to follow throughout his career which brought me many highly emotional moments and a great deal of money.

Now there is Sea the Stars, a horse that has never carried the burden of my money and that I have watched totally dispassionately. For some reason I have not been particularly interested in the top level classics for some years. Too much hype perhaps, production line horses- I don't really know. What I do know now is that STS bears comparison with the aforementioned. Perhaps because he is not as 'flashy' as the others-ie does not show that eyecatching turbo-boost moment that both DB and Montjeu were able to display. However he wins with ease and has apparently never been fully extended.
It doesn't matter what rating he is given based on time or the distance he has beaten others because any form of rating should imo have a long string of ++++'s following it.

Earlier someone likened him to Usain Bolt and it is an image that totally fits the bill for me. Such achievement, such potential ( which its unlikely we will have the opportunity to see fulfilled as I don't think there is a horse that will get close unless he has the mother of all offdays)
 
This debate is premature at the moment, I'm just glad I have been able to witness such a fantastic animal.
 
Galileo said:
It would help though if you read more than just their sound bites and O'Briens actual opinion of the horse.

When O'Brien mentioned the pace and MCM stamina recently on the ATR interview - he clearly stated it left questions in his mind but that he was not saying the result would have been different. He described him as a great horse and the like that he has not seen before for a long time - what more do you want?
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He as good as suggested that STS only beat MCM at York because Kinane rode a great race not to get into a battle with him . In fact as Kinane said he made it harder for himself by having to take a pull . All year it has been RVW wasn't right or F & G suited by the pace etc etc - an endless stream of excuses.

It is all very well tripping out platitudes about him being a great horse but even this week he suggested that this was only on good to firm and that good ground would be a level playing field .

He got his" level playing field "yesterday and they were thrashed by STS .
 
Tout Seul said:
I don't compile my own ratings nor do I fully understand dosage and in truth usually only give credence to such aids when they confirm my own opinions.Brigadier Gerard was the first horse that I ever saw that could be called a great, Dancing Brave with his amazing burst of acceleration was the next and won me a lot of money.

Then came Montjeu, a horse I backed before he had ever run and was extremely fortunate to follow throughout his career which brought me many highly emotional moments and a great deal of money.

Now there is Sea the Stars, a horse that has never carried the burden of my money and that I have watched totally dispassionately. For some reason I have not been particularly interested in the top level classics for some years. Too much hype perhaps, production line horses- I don't really know. What I do know now is that STS bears comparison with the aforementioned. Perhaps because he is not as 'flashy' as the others-ie does not show that eyecatching turbo-boost moment that both DB and Montjeu were able to display. However he wins with ease and has apparently never been fully extended.
It doesn't matter what rating he is given based on time or the distance he has beaten others because any form of rating should imo have a long string of ++++'s following it.

Earlier someone likened him to Usain Bolt and it is an image that totally fits the bill for me. Such achievement, such potential ( which its unlikely we will have the opportunity to see fulfilled as I don't think there is a horse that will get close unless he has the mother of all offdays)
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I agree lots untapped in STS .
 
Tout Seul said:
I don't compile my own ratings nor do I fully understand dosage and in truth usually only give credence to such aids when they confirm my own opinions.

...

Earlier someone likened him to Usain Bolt and it is an image that totally fits the bill for me. Such achievement, such potential ( which its unlikely we will have the opportunity to see fulfilled as I don't think there is a horse that will get close unless he has the mother of all offdays)
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I'm not blessed with an 'eye' for a top horse so I can really only go on the mathematics and how I interpret them. To me, the form lines and the ease of his wins have been screaming out about this horse being exceptional.

And I do believe it was I who likened him to Bolt :)
 
To continue with Grasshoppers point, I think the only horse who would have been a serious danger to STS over 10f since Dancing Brave would be Zarakava. Might be a few that would run him cloe over 12f and certainly over a mile.

Reasoning behind Zarakava is that amazing late rattle (reminiscent of the Brave of course) and with STS's slight tendency to idle in front, could just be caught

It is a crying shame she isnt around this year to put that to the test

Also Grasshopper, it is always hard to judge quite what a flat horse has achieved against peers with the ever changing generations (and the older horses this year are a very downbeat lot). The case for Dancing Brave rests very much on the fact that he really did seem to dominate a pretty decent generation. That Arc was stuffed full of decent performers

But as far as pure charisma and effortless style and temperament,STS is simply outstanding
 
Ardross said:
He as good as suggested that STS only beat MCM at York because Kinane rode a great race not to get into a battle with him . In fact as Kinane said he made it harder for himself by having to take a pull . All year it has been RVW wasn't right or F & G suited by the pace etc etc - an endless stream of excuses.

It is all very well tripping out platitudes about him being a great horse but even this week he suggested that this was only on good to firm and that good ground would be a level playing field .

He got his" level playing field "yesterday and they were thrashed by STS .
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You said yourself that the ground was Sea The Stars one possible weakness yet you'll have a pop at O'Brien for saying the same thing?

Your reading of the comments of O'Brien regarding MCM are way off the mark....never for a moment did anything he said suggest he thought MCM was a better horse than STS. RVW has not been right all year - that has been pretty clear - it still does not mean he is a better horse than STS - would you prefer if O'Brien did not inform us of his training set backs that are there for all to see?

The pace regarding Fame And Glory was again something he (and others including myself) said but categorised it with saying that he was not suggesting with any certainty the result would have been different with a stronger pace. But F&G showed the Epsom Derby form to be pretty unreliable in his Irish Derby victory - but again that is not to suggest STS would not have won that day either.
 
clivex said:
Also Grasshopper, it is always hard to judge quite what a flat horse has achieved against peers with the ever changing generations.
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Agreed, and that is exactly what makes a topic like this so interesting. Generally, the top class horses particularly the classic winners retire at the end of their 3yo season, so there's very little opportunity to compare the generations of classic winners even from one year to the next. Because of that most of the debate on whether horse A is superior or comparable to horse B is based entirely on people's opinion.

There are so many factors to take into account when trying to compare them. For example, if you took all the Epsom Derby winners from the last 30 years and compared the winning times of each horse you'd also have to factor in the going on the day of the race as that may also have been a contributing factor.

I would think that the majority of people on here are agreed that STS is an example of an exceptionally talented racehorse but all of us can only guess at whether he would beat the likes of Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Nijinsky etc etc. Personally I think one of the reasons the STS can be considered a great horse is that he's proven himself to be effective over a wide range of distances at the top level, together with the easy manner in which he's won his races. That's quite unusual in racing these days, much more common to see a horse raced over a specific distance and of course it took 20 years between Nashwan and STS for a horse to do the Guineas/Derby double even though plenty of others have tried.

I did look for the international classifications for top rated horses but can only find as far back as 2007 so had a look at Timeform's highest rated horses. I'm sure these have been posted on here in the past and I don't know how they compare to the IC ratings

145 Sea Bird II
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millenium, Shergar, Vaguely Noble
139 Generous, Pappa Fourway, Reference Point

I find it quite interesting that Nijinsky, generally considered one of the greats, isn't in that list and that the last Epsom Derby winner featured was racing 18 years ago. As of 26/08/09 Timeform had STS on 136 so not far off the top few and of course that could well change by the end of the season.
 
It was a privilege to be in attendance at Leopardstown yesterday. I thought that that was Sea the Stars best performance by some way. He beat a couple of real genuine Group 1 horse with ease. The ovation after the race was tremendous. Definately a contender for the best horse that I've seen.
 
clivex said:
To continue with Grasshoppers point, I think the only horse who would have been a serious danger to STS over 10f since Dancing Brave would be Zarakava. Might be a few that would run him cloe over 12f and certainly over a mile.

Reasoning behind Zarakava is that amazing late rattle (reminiscent of the Brave of course) and with STS's slight tendency to idle in front, could just be caught

It is a crying shame she isnt around this year to put that to the test
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Assuming you mean Zarkava, but I couldn't imagine her getting within a few lengths of STS unless she improved a fair bit from three to four. I can't get her rating above 124 which, while a genuine G1 rating for a filly, would only put her on the equivalent of 127 at wfs against the colts.

I reckon STS would take the piss out of her too.

Now, Goldikova is a different beast altogether. I have her on 132+ and she might even be improving. I reckon she'd let STS know he'd been in a race over 8f or 10f. She beat Aqlaam 6 lengths into second last time and that one's jsut won the Moulin by a couple of lengths. Goldikova is the female STS.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Assuming you mean Zarkava, but I couldn't imagine her getting within a few lengths of STS unless she improved a fair bit from three to four. I can't get her rating above 124 which, while a genuine G1 rating for a filly, would only put her on the equivalent of 127 at wfs against the colts.

I reckon STS would take the piss out of her too.

Now, Goldikova is a different beast altogether. I have her on 132+ and she might even be improving. I reckon she'd let STS know he'd been in a race over 8f or 10f. She beat Aqlaam 6 lengths into second last time and that one's jsut won the Moulin by a couple of lengths. Goldikova is the female STS.
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i'm liking that DO
 
Desert Orchid said:
I can't get her rating above 124 which, while a genuine G1 rating for a filly, would only put her on the equivalent of 127 at wfs against the colts.
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That is what is so wrong about ratings though. It shouldn't need a vintage crop of rivals to illustrate how great a horse is. She had absolutely mountains to spare when winning the Arc last year. Even allowing for her sex allowance that had to be a 4/5lb beating of Youmzain who hit 127/8 in both his Arc efforts.
 
Zarkava never had the chance to beat 130 rated animals; to say Sea The Stars would take the piss out of her is nothing more than an assumption. She won all her races with such consummate ease that it's difficult to put a figure or even get a handle on how good she would have been against an opposition of Sea The Stars ability.
 
Timeform go provisionally 140 Sea The Stars.

Irish Champion Stakes win is joint third-best performance since 1970
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Sea The Stars has joined the list of all-time greats after his stunning Irish Champion Stakes win at Leopardstown, according to world-renowned ratings organisation Timeform - and there is the mouth-watering prospect of better to come.
Timeform have provisionally given John Oxx's colt a huge rating of 140, which puts him alongside Shergar, Dancing Brave and Dubai Millennium as the third best horse since 1970.
Only Brigadier Gerard (144) and Mill Reef (141) have been allotted bigger ratings by Timeform since 1970.

Timeform's Flat Editor Jamie Lynch commented: "Mastercraftsman (130) appears to have run his race in third, and there is also good reason for believing that Fame And Glory deserves a rating of 135, and to be bracketed in the same league as Sinndar (134), Galileo (134) and St Jovite (135).
"Therefore the form of the race looks solid, and we have given Sea The Stars a provisional rating of 140.
"Furthermore, Sea The Stars again didn't look all out, leaving the impression there could be an even better performance in him if ever comes up against something able to test him fully.
"He should now be classed as one of the all-time greats."
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