So You Think - substance or hype ?
- Thread starter Ardross
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Harbinger
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According to the possibly incomplete RP form, his last run over a mile was his 2nd in an all-aged Group 1 handicap in November 2009, where he failed by 2 1/2 lengths to give 17lbs to the winner. He has since won a Group 2 over 7f and a Group 1 over 9f.
While I realise he has performed on more than one occasion in the high 120s and is an excellent individual, surely this is overstating it. We have the likes of Canford Cliffs at a mile. I'd be pretty sure Canford could beat him at that trip. While a handful of middle distance horses (not least Workforce, who is actually rated a little higher than SYT) would certainly come close to beating him if not actually doing so. And this is without considering the 3yos such as Frankel (who may be truly outstanding).
I know what gus is getting at here. They are almost willing him to be the best thing since Pegasus as they are desperate to promote his sire HC.
Far more effective maybe but far more difficult to control and what guarantees are there that it will reach the right audiences?
This is the organisation run by the ever secretive Magnier and it is a massively successful one so i'm sure he'd argue their way is good business sense as well. Why rely on someone else when you can do it yourself.
This is the organisation run by the ever secretive Magnier and it is a massively successful one so i'm sure he'd argue their way is good business sense as well. Why rely on someone else when you can do it yourself.
Come on aragon! Friendly journalist gets a 5 star trip to ireland and gets the whispers that this horse is the best ever and hes going to put in copy saying "Ballydoyle talking Bollocks again!"
They know whos going to be onside and who might not be. and if they dont the PR agency will do the work
Fact is, if you go shouting it yourself, people mitght think your nuts or delusional but "experienced watchers" (ie pissed up, well fed journalist who has extra room entertainment at the Ballydoyle Hilton) is far more likely to be taken seriously...
They know whos going to be onside and who might not be. and if they dont the PR agency will do the work
Fact is, if you go shouting it yourself, people mitght think your nuts or delusional but "experienced watchers" (ie pissed up, well fed journalist who has extra room entertainment at the Ballydoyle Hilton) is far more likely to be taken seriously...
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I don't blame them for the way they go about spreading the word..i just choose to ignore it and treat it for what it is ..spin
on paper..not a pegasus..yet anyway
on paper..not a pegasus..yet anyway
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:lol:
Soary Stars
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Agreeing with all this.
I do think, though, that we (well, I) tend to take non-European form as not verified! Weird. Can't shake it off tho.
I know what you mean... but to be fair this one has performed exceptionally against decent opposition. While he's head and shoulders above anything down there though, when he comes up against Derby and Arc winners it could well be a different story.
For Bart Cummings to say this fellow was 'probably the best he has trained' is an unbelievable compliment. Cummings is the equal of any great trainer we have in Europe (Fabre, O'Brien, Stoute etc) plus some. I've witnessed the tight turning nature of Moonee Valley first hand so for him to lay up and win two Cox Plates on the bounce confirms he has the toe. So I think he could most certainly win a Group One over the mile despite the top quality opposition in the division already. He doesn't shirk a challenge either, as evidenced in the Melbourne Cup 2010. The horse travels, stays and has a turn of pace and then another turn of pace. I believe the hype and hopefully everyone will too for starters next week in Ascot.
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Either way it's them controlling the content. Gus's original point was about gallop watchers not about journalists being invited to watch work and getting buttered up. Big difference between standing on the Newmarket gallops and Ballydoyles...
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Grand Armee
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His last run over a mile he was actually 2nd, ONE week after winning the Cox Plate as a 3YO to a pretty good horse in All American at Handicap conditions in the Group 1 Emirates Stakes at Flemington. The latter retired thereafter, as from memory he broke down, and is now standing at stud in the USA.
First up last spring, So You Think won a Group 2 race over 7f at WFA, against the reigning Australian Horse of the Year and multiple Group 1 winner Typhoon Tracey. She was the favourite for the Hong Kong Mile for a period of time in 2010, but sadly did not make it there.
Other horses he beat that spring were Shoot Out, Whobegotyou (who is very consistent), Heart of Dreams, Descarado (beat him in the LKS Mackinnon quite easily, that horse had just won the Caulfield Cup 2 weeks prior), Shocking (who won the 2011 Australian Cup). These are not every day Listed and Group 3 winners, all are Group 1 winners who show up to WFA racing and either win or place.
Two other horses from Australia have walked through Aidan O'Brien's stables, Starspangledbanner and Haradasun. They are not even half the horse that So You Think is. Starspangledbanner was an excellent sprinter, but only had one Group 1 win to his name as a sprinter, the Oakleigh Plate, which is a Handicap race. Haradasun was a top class 3 through and through, but he never won as an older horse in Australia until he got to Europe. His best effort was 2nd in the Cox Plate to a wonderful old champ in El Segundo.
Gamla Stan
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Totally agree with all you say GA, I just still think despite all that, he doesn't warrant being 1/2 against horses like Planteur and Rewilding who are genuine Group One horses in their own right.
Should be a cracking race either way.
Should be a cracking race either way.
Grand Armee
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I don't know how any horse can be 1/2 fullstop coming off one of the weakest Group 1 races ever run.
The horses he beat were no better than Group 3 standard.
But then again, as they say, whatever shows up, shows up.
The horses he beat were no better than Group 3 standard.
But then again, as they say, whatever shows up, shows up.
Circumspect
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The Aussies are bullish. Another "hype" article with a few digs thrown in at Aidan O'Brien's recent reticence with the press.
Today's Irish Times.
Today's Irish Times.
Starspangledbanner beat SYT over a mile .
I do not doubt that he is an established Group1 performer but he is being hyped as if he is Sea Bird, Nijinsky and Sea the Stars rolled into one. He might be but a four length beating of Campanologist does not such a horse make.
I do not doubt that he is an established Group1 performer but he is being hyped as if he is Sea Bird, Nijinsky and Sea the Stars rolled into one. He might be but a four length beating of Campanologist does not such a horse make.
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Very good read
Whether aussie trainers are accessible 24 hours a day or not, you have to take it with a pinch of salt given that tiresome nation's tendency to big up absolutely everything about their big empty desert with a few Croydon's dotted around the coast
And Bart Simpson is someone from whom a period of silence would be very welcome (should be permanant soon given hes a coffin dodger)
Would love it if AOB said that then horse came to Ireland hopelessly unfit and had clearly been trained by a muppet
Whether aussie trainers are accessible 24 hours a day or not, you have to take it with a pinch of salt given that tiresome nation's tendency to big up absolutely everything about their big empty desert with a few Croydon's dotted around the coast
And Bart Simpson is someone from whom a period of silence would be very welcome (should be permanant soon given hes a coffin dodger)
Would love it if AOB said that then horse came to Ireland hopelessly unfit and had clearly been trained by a muppet
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
He's not actually called Bart Simpson is he? Aye carumba.