St Leger

If Camelot was worthy of the triple crown he would have won. You can say the winning jockey rode a better race but Camelot was not beaten by jockey error.
 
I think O'Brien Sr was brilliant in his post race interview. He must have been massively disappointed to see a long-term plan thwarted but he analysed the race objectively before deflecting any criticism away from the jockey and on to himself.

I'm wondering about the jockey situation at Godolphin, though, on the back of that and the dreadful ride Dettori gave Invisible Man in the first.
 
Euronymous said:
Close enough? He was right out the back in a slowly run race.


This is like the idiots on the ML earlier on saying Strong Suit wasn't badly ridden in the Hungerford. If a horse is held up down the field in a slowly run race it's a massive disadvantage. Especially if a more enterprising jockey nicks a couple of lengths.
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before they turned in there is no more than a length between C and E

why do you think it was a slow run race?..it wasn't a tough pace but it didn't stop encke winning from a similar spot

Camelot had a similar chance to Encke from 4 out and didn't pick up as well..even though he saved more energy early as you say..so when they kicked C should have found more than E..he didn't so was beaten by a better horse on the day
 
SlimChance said:
I did say after his maiden win that he was completely overrated. What I failed to work out was that the current generation is absolute garbage. Every 3yo in the Arc will be run over.
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He's kind of like a 126 horse running against 117/8's. It's such a poor crop.

I would hope that Timeform take him off 130.
 
Many things could be said about this race, like Camelot just the best of an abysmal crop, not staying was not his undoing etc. etc. but surely the one thing to come out of it for me is that the Ballydoyle boys must be looking for a jockey change next year. It's been a nice experiment with junior but time to man up and get a pro commensurate with the horse talent. Either Soumillon or Moore simply have to be the two guys to go for now.
 
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I don't think Joseph will stay riding for too much longer owing to his weight, especially if he wins the Irish championship this year
 
if you compare the last 2 furlongs of the ID to the last 2f of the other races run on the same day..allow for the different distance ..and you will see that Camelot ran them slower than a G1 horse should do..thats also why BTS got so close to him..so when stamina was at a premium Camelot was a slow winner of that race

today he didn't pick up as fast as the winner..and you can ignore it if you want ..but he was in a similar position to the winner from before they turned in

he stays..but not as fast as the winner..and that clearly showed in the sectionals in Ireland..thats why i thought he was a ridiculous price today

if Joseph had run him with the pace and lost..he would have been criticised ..he couldn't really win..its clear they doubted his stamina as there was no pacemaker there for him...from 4 out he had every chance..same chance as winner
 
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Camelot is a good horse in a bad generation
his worst 2 runs have been today and Irish Derby
I dont rate him better than 126

and Obrien comments before the race saying he was the best horse he has trained sound really funny , coming from the trainer of Dylan Thomas, Galileo, Hawk Wing, High Chapparral, Stravinsky or So You Think.

I dont think Camelot would have beaten even Peeping fawn over 10/12f


about todays ride, it was not perfect but I doubt it cost him the race.
 
Far from doubting his stamina, AO'B afterwards expressed his regret they hadn't run a pacemaker as they didn't go fast enough early.
For mine, he ran below form, and the way he finished showed it had nothing to do with lack of stamina. Just hope they keep him in training now, so we can find out how good he really is.
 
brendanr said:
It's been a nice experiment with junior but time to man up and get a pro commensurate with the horse talent.
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Spot on! I'll stick my head right on the line here and say I think JOB got the horse beat today. He was lucky the horse had so much talent to come from as far back to win at Epsom. Today he was the only horse on the bridle, the horse wants to go, yet JOB takes a pull and disappoints him. By the time he does let him go, Encke has flown. Camelot did stay - hes closing him down at the line.

The hanging head of JOB afterwards said it all. Francome is talking a load of bollox as usual. And I would have been delighted if Barcelona had got dumped after the line - sooner or later it will happen. He was lucky today as the horse started to move back to where the stables area is and his saddle slipped. He then yanked the horse sharply back. This is how you injure tendons - sudden movements at speed.

Right rant over! BTW not speaking through pocket either - backed Thought Worthy - not good enough today.
 
jinnyj said:
Spot on! I'll stick my head right on the line here and say I think JOB got the horse beat today. He was lucky the horse had so much talent to come from as far back to win at Epsom. Today he was the only horse on the bridle, the horse wants to go, yet JOB takes a pull and disappoints him. By the time he does let him go, Encke has flown. Camelot did stay - hes closing him down at the line.

The hanging head of JOB afterwards said it all. Francome is talking a load of bollox as usual. And I would have been delighted if Barcelona had got dumped after the line - sooner or later it will happen. He was lucky today as the horse started to move back to where the stables area is and his saddle slipped. He then yanked the horse sharply back. This is how you injure tendons - sudden movements at speed.

Right rant over! BTW not speaking through pocket either - backed Thought Worthy - not good enough today.
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Bang on the money!
 
EC1 said:
if you compare the last 2 furlongs of the ID to the last 2f of the other races run on the same day..allow for the different distance ..and you will see that Camelot ran them slower than a G1 horse should do..thats also why BTS got so close to him..so when stamina was at a premium Camelot was a slow winner of that race

today he didn't pick up as fast as the winner..and you can ignore it if you want ..but he was in a similar position to the winner from before they turned in

he stays..but not as fast as the winner..and that clearly showed in the sectionals in Ireland..thats why i thought he was a ridiculous price today

if Joseph had run him with the pace and lost..he would have been criticised ..he couldn't really win..its clear they doubted his stamina as there was no pacemaker there for him...from 4 out he had every chance..same chance as winner
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Was in your camp on the basis of his Irish run but not today.

He was first off not in the same position as the winner turning in because they were both on the rail and C was about 2 lengths behind the winner. In the straight Barzalona slid off it and O'Brien elected to stay there looking like cantering and while they were no more than a length apart when Barzalona made his unimpeded move O'Brien was still stuck. When he finally got free he had to chase a horse that showed a real, to me at least, surprising turn of foot. Camelot on the other hand took a while to get going and was running the winner down at the line from 3 lengths to about 3/4 over the last two furlongs so not sure where the stamina issue comes into it. In the end Camelot is just not that good. Looking back at the 2000G what about those behind. They are nowhere today. The Derby, nowhere, The Irish Derby, nowhere. All these confirmed stayers were crushed by Camelot today just not the one that got away. And yes I have no doubt that jockeyship played a role. Barzalona was working his horse real good when O'Brien was still sitting motionless behind. Would Camelot have won if they switched jockeys? Wouldn't want to speculate on that but if you asked me would I rather have Barzalona or O'Brien riding my horse that would be a no brainer for me.
 
fair enough Brendan..i still think if Camelot was the horse people think he would have ate Encke in the last furlong

i have to laugh about the jockey situation though..JOB was getting plaudits galore throughout this season on this forum..now he is useless

Camelot is a 124 horse..why is more being expected when he has done nothing to suggest he is any better than that?

he was never a 2/5 shot today
 
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EC1 said:
i have to laugh about the jockey situation though..JOB was getting plaudits galore throughout this season on this forum..now he is useless
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Not from me he wasn't. Some of the Irish boys on here must have other motives on which I would not speculate either, to cover his ass. Willoughby did a very insightful piece on RUK a few months ago explaining very rationally why the rides Camelot was given in the 2000G and the Derby were nowhere near the optimal rides. I suppose not too many were paying attention.

Having said all that the kid is what 19 years old. For a 19yo he's quite good. Just nowhere near the level of jockey I would expect from such an operation.
 
brendanr said:
Not from me he wasn't. Some of the Irish boys on here must have other motives on which I would not speculate either, to cover his ass. Willoughby did a very insightful piece on RUK a few months ago explaining very rationally why the rides Camelot was given in the 2000G and the Derby were nowhere near the optimal rides. I suppose not too many were paying attention.

Having said all that the kid is what 19 years old. For a 19yo he's quite good. Just nowhere near the level of jockey I would expect from such an operation.
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they weren't optimal rides..i doubt today's has been either but i also doubt the winner today was given an optimal ride..it was that burst of speed 2 out won it today..a burst that Camelot didn't have

optimal rides aren't actually that frequent ...and usually its the lot poorer than optimal ride that gets a jockey false praise when a horse wins against the race pace

i think people find it easier to blame a jockey than actually look at why a horse didn't win in many cases..it doesn't float my boat doing that as i wouldn't learn a lot from when i lose..which i think is key to future success..yes jockeys do make a lot of errors..its part of the game that we have to accept though. Sometimes you just have to see that a horse is beaten by a better one on the day
 
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EC1 said:
not sure i agree..Camelot and the winner were pretty close to each other 2 out..Camelot just didn't find as much
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The difference in the rides was that Barzalona kicked on about three out on Encke (was certainly in full flight as they hit the 2f pole) whilst O'Brien didn't get after Camelot until about a furlong and a half out. In hindsight, if O'Brien had gotten after Camelot earlier, he may well have won.

Hindsight is always 20/20 though, and, in reality, O'Brien gave Camelot the ride I think most expected he would. Given that the horse had the turn of foot to win the Guineas, it wasn't unreasonable to expect that he would pick up Encke either, even given the way the race panned out.
 
I don't think you will find much praise for JOB on here this year, especially compared with previous seasons when he was still new on the scene. Fancying him to win the Irish championship is not the same thing as saying he's the best jockey in Ireland. He'll be given better opportunities to win it than anyone else and he's competent enough to take a sufficient number of them to win the title. But he's not the finished article, has weight problems and too good an alternative career as assistant to his dad to stick at it long term.
 
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