The Arc 2019 discussion thread
- Thread starter Marb
- Start date
ulleyseys46
At the Start
dont post very often, you have been singing praises of waldgeist chances on here, so well done
Thanks ulleyseys and other members. I felt there was something more to come from Waldgeist and he came through today. I think Grey summed it up nicely. Based on how short Enable was I was trying to envisage an each way alternative. I found the right one on this occasion and probably got a bit lucky!
Yeah great shout. I snapped up some 20/1 this morning (apologies for after-timing) but can’t recall feeling so deflated with a winner at that price
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Mmmm; Enable the only horse in the first 5 that didn't come from off the pace?
Well done Marb, richly deserved for all the effort you put in on this forum.
G-G
Senior Jockey
I think the ground did for her, she was just struggling on it the last 150 yards. Real shame, nothing taken away from the winner. Dettori knew it , watch his body language the last 100 yards, if he had thought she had anything left, I think he would have smacked her but he knew she had run out of everything on that ground.
Hope they don't do anything silly about getting her to go out on a win, she's had some hard races this year.
Hope they don't do anything silly about getting her to go out on a win, she's had some hard races this year.
I'd give the winner the benefit of future races before getting too deflated. He did have a right to win the race and thats what he did. Personally I am very much looking forward to seeing if he can maintain todays improvement. I see the Breeders Cup Turf is a possibility. 5/1 top price.
He outstayed her in the mud pure and simple - good to soft he would not have got close like in the KG and last year’s Breeders Cup.
He was running on in the King George. What I like is the better the gallop the better he performed.
The Racing Post and other anaylists will be quick to critisise the form. I view it completely the opposite.
I have just witnessed a group one performer cut down an all time great in Enable
On this basis I wouldn't be laying Waldgeist anytime soon. He is in the form of his life.
The Racing Post and other anaylists will be quick to critisise the form. I view it completely the opposite.
I have just witnessed a group one performer cut down an all time great in Enable
On this basis I wouldn't be laying Waldgeist anytime soon. He is in the form of his life.
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Frankel
Senior Jockey
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No surprise to see him reverse the KG form given the ground and how close he was at the end of that race. Once the winner was switched out at 300m it looked on the cards, 200m the writing was on the wall.
You feared for Sottsass too with the ground at that trip and with the speed he has.
Can't knock Enable, she rocks up every time and you know she is going to run her race. Fair doos to the winner though.
You feared for Sottsass too with the ground at that trip and with the speed he has.
Can't knock Enable, she rocks up every time and you know she is going to run her race. Fair doos to the winner though.
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Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
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Everyone was aware of the ground before the race -the winning jockey was superb all weekend.
baldeagle
Conditional
I haven’t seen the race yet... had a small bet antepost on Waldgeist ...gutted for Enable well done Marble you’ve been talking him up for some time
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I hope they retire Enable now and preserve her memory as it currently shines as I think in posterity she may be seen as the 'Beef or Salmon' of the flat. She won a lot of small field average Group One's, mostly beating the same horse (s), without ever really establishing true greatness.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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It's good to hear that Longchamp coped much better with the big Arc day attendance than last year:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...wpiece-gets-its-mojo-back-amid-arc-day-upsets
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...wpiece-gets-its-mojo-back-amid-arc-day-upsets
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I had a little on yes. Enable was a little below form but I expected that tbh, the ground didn't help obviously.
AC this gives me no words...unfathomable comments.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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Kevin Blake:
Now, onto Enable. It would be simple to look at the closing stages of the Arc and conclude that Enable ran her race and just found one too good in testing conditions. Given that she powered to the front two furlongs out and ultimately saw off everything bar Waldgeist with authority, it would seem a reasonable conclusion to draw.
However, for me there were significant signs in the early stages that Enable wasn’t quite herself.
From the very outset of her career, we have been accustomed to seeing Enable taking a strong hold in the early stage of her races. At times, if anything she has over-raced. The power with which she travels is what makes her so tactically versatile, as she is always there in Frankie’s hands if he wants her to take closer order.
This was not the case on Sunday. Not only did she not travel with her usual zest, Frankie had to urge her along on a couple of occasions in the opening furlongs. In fairness to her, she did pick up the bridle and travel better in the middle and latter sections of the race, but those uncharacteristically laboured opening few furlongs offer compelling evidence that she wasn’t quite herself on the day.
Dettori has confirmed that interpretation of her performance, saying: “I struggled in the first bit of the race and let her find her feet. She came good for me in the false straight and I waited for the 300m pole, but I didn’t find as much as I thought I’d left and I just folded a little bit.”
So, why might that have been the case? Many, including Gosden and Dettori, have pointed an accusatory finger at the ground, but I’m not so sure that was to blame. The thing is, the ground wasn’t riding nearly as testing as has been generally been reported.
Official ground descriptions are often unreliable in France and this looks to be an example of that. Timeform produce their own ground descriptions after racing has taken place based on analysis of the race times.
They have concluded that, far from being soft or even heavy as had been suggested, the ground at ParisLongchamp on Sunday rode good-to-soft.
Enable has gained four of her 10 Group 1 wins on ground that Timeform described as softer than good. It shouldn’t be forgotten that one of the most impressive performances of her career came on ground that Timeform called soft in the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot back in 2017.
Given how she powered to the line in what was a well-run race that day, she is clearly not shy of stamina at the trip either. Considering she was just a three-year-old at that stage, the stamina test or the ground in the Arc shouldn’t have been problems to her at this stage of her career.
It is of course impossible to know with certainty, but my view is that she was just a little bit flat and not quite at her best on the day. Many observers seem to associate running flat with never travelling and finishing well beaten, but like everything else, there are varying degrees of running flat.
It is possible to be a little bit flat and the marked contrast from the norm in Enable’s early-race demeanour very much hints at that. While she has clearly still run a very big race, racing is a game of millimetres and a horse being just a tiny bit off their game is enough to be the difference between winning and losing.
Prior to the race, it was interesting to hear Jason Weaver give an insight into Enable’s work at home of late on Sky Sports Racing. He suggested that the word was that her recent work had only been considered adequate. This concerned John Gosden enough that he had changed her routine and asked her to make the running in a recent gallop, seemingly in the hope of sparking her up.
John Gosden isn’t one for making excuses after big defeats, but one can’t help but wonder whether he was concerned about her form going into the race.
Was there anything more that Frankie Dettori could have done on the day? Hindsight-ologists might suggest that he could have ridden her a little bit more quietly and looked to strike a shade later in what was a well-run race in testing conditions. In reality, he didn’t do anything notably different to what has worked so well for her all her career, including in the aforementioned soft ground King George where he struck the front even earlier.
A peak-form Enable would have put the Arc to bed from that position on Sunday, but she just didn’t have anything left to give him in the closing stages.
Now, onto Enable. It would be simple to look at the closing stages of the Arc and conclude that Enable ran her race and just found one too good in testing conditions. Given that she powered to the front two furlongs out and ultimately saw off everything bar Waldgeist with authority, it would seem a reasonable conclusion to draw.
However, for me there were significant signs in the early stages that Enable wasn’t quite herself.
From the very outset of her career, we have been accustomed to seeing Enable taking a strong hold in the early stage of her races. At times, if anything she has over-raced. The power with which she travels is what makes her so tactically versatile, as she is always there in Frankie’s hands if he wants her to take closer order.
This was not the case on Sunday. Not only did she not travel with her usual zest, Frankie had to urge her along on a couple of occasions in the opening furlongs. In fairness to her, she did pick up the bridle and travel better in the middle and latter sections of the race, but those uncharacteristically laboured opening few furlongs offer compelling evidence that she wasn’t quite herself on the day.
Dettori has confirmed that interpretation of her performance, saying: “I struggled in the first bit of the race and let her find her feet. She came good for me in the false straight and I waited for the 300m pole, but I didn’t find as much as I thought I’d left and I just folded a little bit.”
So, why might that have been the case? Many, including Gosden and Dettori, have pointed an accusatory finger at the ground, but I’m not so sure that was to blame. The thing is, the ground wasn’t riding nearly as testing as has been generally been reported.
Official ground descriptions are often unreliable in France and this looks to be an example of that. Timeform produce their own ground descriptions after racing has taken place based on analysis of the race times.
They have concluded that, far from being soft or even heavy as had been suggested, the ground at ParisLongchamp on Sunday rode good-to-soft.
Enable has gained four of her 10 Group 1 wins on ground that Timeform described as softer than good. It shouldn’t be forgotten that one of the most impressive performances of her career came on ground that Timeform called soft in the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot back in 2017.
Given how she powered to the line in what was a well-run race that day, she is clearly not shy of stamina at the trip either. Considering she was just a three-year-old at that stage, the stamina test or the ground in the Arc shouldn’t have been problems to her at this stage of her career.
It is of course impossible to know with certainty, but my view is that she was just a little bit flat and not quite at her best on the day. Many observers seem to associate running flat with never travelling and finishing well beaten, but like everything else, there are varying degrees of running flat.
It is possible to be a little bit flat and the marked contrast from the norm in Enable’s early-race demeanour very much hints at that. While she has clearly still run a very big race, racing is a game of millimetres and a horse being just a tiny bit off their game is enough to be the difference between winning and losing.
Prior to the race, it was interesting to hear Jason Weaver give an insight into Enable’s work at home of late on Sky Sports Racing. He suggested that the word was that her recent work had only been considered adequate. This concerned John Gosden enough that he had changed her routine and asked her to make the running in a recent gallop, seemingly in the hope of sparking her up.
John Gosden isn’t one for making excuses after big defeats, but one can’t help but wonder whether he was concerned about her form going into the race.
Was there anything more that Frankie Dettori could have done on the day? Hindsight-ologists might suggest that he could have ridden her a little bit more quietly and looked to strike a shade later in what was a well-run race in testing conditions. In reality, he didn’t do anything notably different to what has worked so well for her all her career, including in the aforementioned soft ground King George where he struck the front even earlier.
A peak-form Enable would have put the Arc to bed from that position on Sunday, but she just didn’t have anything left to give him in the closing stages.
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