prince regent
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rip van winkle for me would be the logical choice for the french derby
The Derby & Irish Derby 2009
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Whatever I say he has to respond with a pseudo-authoritative posting making out he knows everything and I've just about had enough of it, frankly. Not least when he doesn't have the practical experience of many people on here about the subjects he claims to be all knowing about.
Ironically, I was pointing out that what he said to start with was in fact incorrect! :lol:
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Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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Just about everyone on here responds to everything in varying degrees of pseudo-authority.
Why make an issue of it? I've read through the relevant section of the debate a couple of times and I'd say that's all it's been - debate. I didn't even read it as being directed towards anybody in particular, just an addition to the debate.
Why make an issue of it? I've read through the relevant section of the debate a couple of times and I'd say that's all it's been - debate. I didn't even read it as being directed towards anybody in particular, just an addition to the debate.
The post-race press de-brief. AOB explained how they had been using the trials as just that. BBI ran in Magnier first colours and Freemantle in Smith first colours.
I wasn’t actually disagreeing with you. But since I responded to this before you did I can’t see how the issue of agreeing of disagreeing with you comes into it.
You appear to have a very fragile ego and insist on being increasingly abusive. I have always tried to be kind to you as I value strongly held opinions if they are based on true conviction, which yours often seem to be. But to be honest your recent behaviour is barking imo.
A forum is for an exchange of ideas not a soap box to air your personal frustrations.
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Right will leave things as they are but back on to Derby debate from here on in. Both have had the chance to air you're views....here on in anything else will be removed so that the thread is not ruined for everyone else.
Probably no direct relevence in this instance.
The Magnier, Tabor, Smith dynamic can be confused as they tend to have different majority shares in different horses.
Sometimes they use second colours to indicate a clear second string/pacemaker for example (although this would tend to be when majority-owned by the same individual). Other times they will run three sets of first colours (not always when majority owned, sometimes when jointly owned) to differentiate them more as running in their own right.
It was wrong to assume BBI was a second string in the Dante. They must have a double-handful that are so close at home that they can't really tell between them until they see the racecourse.
I think we are crossing wires a little - my presumption that Freemantle was favoured by Ballydoyle was purely based on jockey bookings and market support/position, in the Dante and prior to the Dante, the Derby, not on colours.
On the subject of colours, Magnier seems to own less and less the majority share in Ballydoyle horses, or am I mistaken? More Derrick Smith colours than before.
On the subject of colours, Magnier seems to own less and less the majority share in Ballydoyle horses, or am I mistaken? More Derrick Smith colours than before.
A Galileo/Darshaan sire/dam sire cross. I’ll give up analysing pedigrees if this one doesn’t get 12 furlongs!
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Backed Chock A Block a couple of months ago having seen his debut win - very taking on that occasion in open company (rather than in a Maiden) so interesting to see how he goes in the Cocked Hat (who thought this one up?) Stakes.
I realised that's what you mean't about jockey bookings and normally in a big race that was not a trial that would be a fair assumption.
I was just introducing the other element of second colours, as I've noticed that they tend to do that when they clearly want to indicate a second string.
As far a racing is concerned I think they like to give Derrick Smith's colours an airing whenever possible (even when equally owned, sometimes they'll alternate for the same horse).
John Magnier of course ultimately controls the breeding operation. The two sets of Magnier colours are registered in his wife's name. Michael Tabor likewise has his sets and Smith his.
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The colours just reflect how each partnership (set up some time in advance of the horses running) is set up and are not used to differentiate between second/third string.
For instance in terms of the Dante, Black Bear Island’s and Freemantle’s colours were determined long in advance of the Dante being run. So they ran last Thursday according to how the partnership was set up – probably last year as two year olds.
For instance in terms of the Dante, Black Bear Island’s and Freemantle’s colours were determined long in advance of the Dante being run. So they ran last Thursday according to how the partnership was set up – probably last year as two year olds.
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Normally yes. But the relationship between these three is sometimes a bit more complex. Some are owned equally in partnership and others have majority share weightings, while others are owned either between two of the three or outright and a few with other owners.
In the past some of their horses have alternated colours (it's not always clear whether the percentage ownership has changed or not) for those owned equally, in the same way as Denman for instance alternates colours between his equal joint owners.
Consequently some horses are entitled to wear two (or in theory even more) sets of first colours. And it is an option whether to run them in another first set or the second-colours of the original set (if you see what I mean). I didn't mean to suggest that this was necessarily the case in the Dante though.
I've noted that when two equally owned horses run they tend to run in alternative first colours rather than necessarily the first and second colours (although it's difficult to know which ones are owned equally from those that are unequal).
If they want to make it clear that one is a second string, they seem to try to use second colours rather than alternate first sets.
Using Down To The Woods (admittedly not a Coolmore horse) as an example – owned in joint equal partnership. I had my own set of colours, Graham had his and we had joint-partnership colours. When owned by us he ran in joint partnership colours, but in theory he could have run in any of three first sets.
Had we ever run a similarly owned horse in the same race we’d have the option of running the two in any of the three first sets, or a first set and the second colours for that set.
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Flagship uberalles
Journeyman
From the BBC:
Royal colt Free Agent puts his Derby credentials on the line in the Cocked Hat Stakes at Goodwood on Wednesday.
He is a general 33-1 shot for the Epsom Classic, and is unbeaten in two starts - at Royal Ascot and the Breeders' Cup.
Eh?
Can't get too excited about anything running today in the context of the Derby, anyone else got a different view?
Royal colt Free Agent puts his Derby credentials on the line in the Cocked Hat Stakes at Goodwood on Wednesday.
He is a general 33-1 shot for the Epsom Classic, and is unbeaten in two starts - at Royal Ascot and the Breeders' Cup.
Eh?
Can't get too excited about anything running today in the context of the Derby, anyone else got a different view?
I don't think this is the case. Red rock canyon for example. I thought the horse (second string) only wore second colours if there was a more fancied stablemate in the same race in the same pre-determinded ownership (as described by Galileo) (ie - Excellent Art in the St James Palace; could have worn different colour)
I wouldn't completely write off Chock a block.
Connections in these situations have options as to which sets they could use - see the footnote example I added into previous posting.
The Magnier/Tabor/Smith combination differs from the example in that they do not have partnership colours in addition to their own sets. But otherwise the principle holds true.
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Thats not true for Irish based owners, if they want to use a different set of colours they have to cancel the previous partnership and lodge a new one.
Freemantle for instance has a partnership lodged and Derrick Smith's colours are registered as the colours for that horse. On morning of declarations or whatever they cannot just decide to run in Magnier's colours. They would have to lodge a new form (with signitures of all three etc) stating they are changing the partnership.
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Me neither Hamm - ran in a winners race on debut last year and won very impressively. Took some big prices for the Derby but tbh he's about all I have left lol
It's the owners rather than the horses that have registered colours here.
This is a puzzle then as I've seen Ballydoyle horses run in dark blue, then when racing next time with a preferred stablemate the racecard shows the pink second colours, but the horse has then actually run in either Tabor's colours or Smith's colours, contrary to the racecard. I can only surmise that such examples must be in equal ownership... or it may be that this has only happened outside of Ireland.
This is what I thought. It seems unlikely they could change their registered colours on the day of the race.
I have noticed a few new names on the ownership of the coolmore horses lately as well. Seems they may be spreading the risk because as someone else has pointed out, Magnier in particular has had far fewer runners of late. This did happen a few years ago as well though (Haven't got the RP available to give exact year but circa 2002 - JP Spencer?!).
As an aside, George Baker, trained by George Baker and ridden by George Baker yesterday did make me chuckle. Findlay has a sense of humour.
Its the owners that have the colours here as well.
Partnership form has to be completed for each horse....the first named partner in the syndicate is the partner who's colours the horse must run under.
The Dark blue/pink sets of colours is fine, Magnier was obviously the first named partner in that syndicate, presumably he had another horse in the race where he was also the first named partner so he must choose which one races in the second set. In that instance Tabor could not use his colours even though he has shares in his horses. It would have to be Magniers first or second colours or a change in cap etc.