The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

I don't see where this notion of Ballydoyle dividing their runners into two squads comes from. It's only if horses are not ready for Epsom, coming as it does so early in the season, that they aren't sent there. Horses who've already earned the right to run will surely be let take their place.

The Irish Derby takes just as much winning as the Epsom version, however, and it's normal for Ballydoyle winners at Epsom to then go to the Curragh.
 
Grey said:
I don't see where this notion of Ballydoyle dividing their runners into two squads comes from. It's only if horses are not ready for Epsom, coming as it does so early in the season, that they aren't sent there. Horses who've already earned the right to run will surely be let take their place.

The Irish Derby takes just as much winning as the Epsom version, however, and it's normal for Ballydoyle winners at Epsom to then go to the Curragh.
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Agreed, its come to the stage now where O'Brien nearly uses the English Guineas and Epsom Derby as a platform to run all his top horses in and let them sort themselves out on the racecourse...then make plans from there.
 
Grey said:
The Irish Derby takes just as much winning as the Epsom version, however, and it's normal for Ballydoyle winners at Epsom to then go to the Curragh.
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I agree. It's just that some horses are suited to galloping tracks more than others. Ballydoyle has an even bigger selection this year than usual, with (let's say) Fame And Glory aside, they look much of a muchness in terms of relative ability. It therefore makes sense to aim them where their respective strengths lie. It wouldn't be the first time Ballydoyle has targeted a horse at a race that plays to its strengths.

I'm not ruling out those that line up at Epsom going to Ireland. In fact I expect Fame And Glory and BBI at least to do just that. But I reckon Freemantle could well skip Epsom and go straight to the Irish Derby. Freemantle may also not be quite ready for the Derby yet judging from the small indications as to which are favoured. This is no doubt also reflected in some part in the price.

I'd say for instance they are itching to run Rip at Epsom, but much cooler about where Freemantle goes.
 
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Steve,

Wouldn't you say though that the fact Murtagh rode Freemantle in the Dante as opposed to BBI (who, remember, had already had a run this season, should have been expected to be the fitter, and is a full brother to High Chapparal) is an indication of just how fancied he is at Ballydoyle?
 
I'd say Ballydoyle will as usual send anything with a conceivable chance of winning to Epsom. The Derby is their top priority for the season and they would hate to let it slip through their hands by discovering too late that one of the ugly ducklings kept at home was in fact a swan. As Galileo says, Epsom will be the first time they find out just how good most of them are and plans will be made from there.

Anything different would be a change of approach from previous seasons.
 
When they have ahd that approach they didnt win the Derby.

This year they have the clear favorite and I dont rule out they change their approach and try to win the French Derby also.
 
I know what you mean, it's a bit like Willy Mullins and the Cheltenham bumper, the more he runs the less his chance of winning it.

But I think they will at least let those that ran well in the recognised trials take their place, which already gives them half a dozen runners. Any one of them might win if they improve by a few lengths more than the others between the trials and the big day.
 
sunybay said:
When they have ahd that approach they didnt win the Derby.

This year they have the clear favorite and I dont rule out they change their approach and try to win the French Derby also.
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O'Brien said in the Racing Post today that they have the likes of Westphalia, Drumbeat, Set Sail and Malibu Bay amongst others for the French Derby.

Its unlikely, even if they have another Galileo or better that they will go single handed to Epsom again. They have stable jam packed with Galileos' Montjeus, Sadlers Wells etc.....where else are they going to run them.
 
Hamm said:
Steve,

Wouldn't you say though that the fact Murtagh rode Freemantle in the Dante as opposed to BBI (who, remember, had already had a run this season, should have been expected to be the fitter, and is a full brother to High Chapparal) is an indication of just how fancied he is at Ballydoyle?
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This just shows how it is not wise to always jump to these sort of conclusions. Apparently AOB wanted Murtagh to ride Freemantle as he had already ridden BBI in France this season and he wanted his opinion of their respective merits. In other words they didn’t know which one was best and Murtagh didn’t have a choice.
Anyway this is missing the point I'm not saying one is any better than the other, just which one is likely to run at Epsom based on the indications from Ballydoyle and the betting market.
 
I'm amazed how matter of factly people are able to tell which of O'Briens are better than the others when the vast majority of the horses have yet to run at their ideal trips yet. Perhaps O'Brien and Murtagh should read this forum more, it might help prevent him keep getting on the wrong ones.
 
SteveM said:
A horse wouldn't be scoped on the day of the race (i.e. before racing), but possibly a day or two before after it had worked. There is no point in scoping a horse that hasn't been exercised. They may well be blood tested although time is often needed for analysis unless a very simple test.
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With respect, SteveM, I think I know a hell of a lot more than you do about scoping/blooding horses - both pre-and post-race - so I don't need your predictably condescending pseudo-authoritative posts assuming I know nothing and making out that you scope horses every other day, whilst being heavily involved on a day to day basis in training horses.

Besides which, if you'd bothered reading my post, you'll have seen that I said plenty of horses are scoped the day before a race, which is true.
 
Indeed, I don't see anything wrong with what Steve said other than perhaps disagreeing with you a bit.

Anyways (getting and staying back on topic)...the more I look at this Derby field the more I think we are in for a humdinger. Any one of the first handful in the race would be worthy favourites in another year...

Freemantle was tipped by Pricewise...now best at 16/1.
 
davidjohnson said:
I'm amazed how matter of factly people are able to tell which of O'Briens are better than the others when the vast majority of the horses have yet to run at their ideal trips yet. Perhaps O'Brien and Murtagh should read this forum more, it might help prevent him keep getting on the wrong ones.
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David,

As far as I can see, all anyone is doing is expressing an opinion before the event, not stating a fact, which is surely better than fence sitting?
 
SteveM said:
This just shows how it is not wise to always jump to these sort of conclusions. Apparently AOB wanted Murtagh to ride Freemantle as he had already ridden BBI in France this season and he wanted his opinion of their respective merits. In other words they didn’t know which one was best and Murtagh didn’t have a choice.
Anyway this is missing the point I'm not saying one is any better than the other, just which one is likely to run at Epsom based on the indications from Ballydoyle and the betting market.
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Steve,

My point was only my reading of the situation based on available facts; wasn't aware of what you just wrote ... where did you see that? Seems a departure from usual protocol for Murtagh.

Interesting regardless, thanks.
 
some good horses there
would have to check the list
but Fabres pair recently
Silver Forst
Rouget has also a pair

the named horses trained by Obrien no chance for me.
 
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