The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

SteveM said:
I doubt they'd run six, but I suppose it's possible. If they didn't run six I'd reckon Freemantle would be one of the least likely.
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Seems like they do intend to run at least six of the nine. Freemantle, Malibu Bay and Johann Zoffany have been named least likely to turn up. Freemantle may wait for Royal Ascot.

Malibu Bay is likely to go for the French Derby.
 
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Presumably Golden Sword will be the pacesetter with Age Of Aquarius handy enough as well to sure that Golden Sword is not ignored....then Fame And Glory sitting 5th/6th/7th with RIP, Master and BBI right out the back?
By Ashley Iveson, PA Sport

Ballydoyle have confirmed a six-strong squad likely to make up the Aidan O'Brien assault on the Investec Derby at Epsom next Saturday.
The Ballydoyle handler currently dominates the betting for the mile-and-a-half Classic, with impressive Derrinstown Stud Derby Trial winner Fame And Glory heading the market.
Joining him on the trip to Epsom will be 2000 Guineas fourth Rip Van Winkle, Lingfield Derby Trial winner Age Of Aquarius, Dante Stakes winner Black Bear Island and Chester Vase 1-2 Golden Sword and Masterofthehorse.
Dante runner-up Freemantle and recent Leopardstown winner Johann Zoffany are both described as "probable non-runners", while O'Brien's only other Derby entry, Malibu Bay, has the French equivalent on his agenda.
Coolmore spokesman Richard Henry said: "Aidan has got six horses for the Derby with Age Of Aquarius, Black Bear Island, Masterofthehorse, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory and Golden Sword all running.
"Freemantle is a probable non-runner and Johann Zoffany probably doesn't run. Those two are both possibles for Royal Ascot.
"Malibu Bay definitely doesn't run and he goes for the French Derby. Along with him in the French Derby are Westphalia and Drumbeat, and Set Sail is a possible for France."
Henry also confirmed the six jockeys booked for O'Brien's Epsom team, although a decision on who rides what will not be made until later in the week.
"Our six jockeys, in no particular order, are Johnny Murtagh, Seamus Heffernan, Colm O'Donoghue, Pat Smullen, Richard Hughes and Ryan Moore," he said.
"There has been no decision on who is going to ride what yet because the horses will work again next week and the ground and other factors will come into play."
 
Disappointed that Freemantle looks unlikely to go to Epsom, but Aiden has proved time and again that he knows best.

Freemantle to hack up in the King Edward V11.
 
Gareth it has been the policy for some years at Epsom to not allow the ground to be any quicker than good on Oaks day. There is no danger of it being so regardless of the weather between now and then.
 
Epsom poised to water, but it looks like being very decent ground for all of them. No real worries I'd say, other than those looking for extremes:

"THE INVESTEC Derby track is set to be given just one cycle of watering on Tuesday and Wednesday after Epsom clerk of the course Andrew Cooper revealed that ground conditions were on Sunday still no quicker than good despite the recent warm weather.
Epsom annually aims to deliver ground no quicker than good to firm for its biggest two days and spent the weekend basking in sunshine, but with considerable moisture in the racing surface, Cooper described himself as "comfortable" with the state of the track.
"We've had a walk and a talk today and I have no hesitation in leaving the going description as good," said Cooper. "It's a shade quicker than when we last assessed conditions on Friday and we have moved from being on the slow side of good to straightforward good ground and a GoingStick reading of 7.9.
"Looking ahead, there is no appreciable rain in the outlook and things are set to stay dry, albeit with temperatures probably a bit cooler than of late and we might have a few days at 18C and 19C.
"After our conversations, we have concluded that we will stay off the racecourse proper tomorrow and just water the chutes and pull-up.
"However, the track will need some water between now and the end of the week and our view is that we will probably put on 5mm to 10mmin one circuit of the track over two days, probably Tuesday and Wednesday. It's not set in stone, but there is plenty of moisture in the ground and we have good grass cover, so that should be enough."
A Met Office spokesman said:"It will be a mostly dry week. There could be a few showers on Thursday and Friday, but at this stage we don't think these will be substantial."
 
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From The Telegraph:

The Derby is not the richest race, though its £1.25 million prize fund is not insignificant in these troubled financial times; nor is its mile-and-a-half distance universally regarded as fashionable in a breeding world that constantly demands more and more speed. But this Classic continues to shape bloodlines from which future generations will be developed and it has retained its relevance.
Mangier fondly recalls his first direct involvement in ownership of a Derby winner, The Minstrel, trained by his father-in-law Vincent O’Brien, ridden by Lester Piggott, and owned in partnership with Robert Sangster, Simon Fraser, Alan Clore, and O’Brien. The chestnut colt, with four white socks, landed the 1977 Derby by a short head following a prolonged, whip-flailing battle with Hot Grove, ridden by Willie Carson.

“I didn’t really know what to expect,” Magnier recalled of that memorable day. “I had only a small share in the horse, but, do you know, it’s a dangerous experience. You’d be hooked after something like that.”

And so he was. Magnier, universally acknowledged as the foremost thoroughbred horse breeder of his time, has continued to extend and develop his bloodstock and racing interests on a global scale, with his Tipperary-based Coolmore stud farm flourishing, along with branches in the United States and Australia.
He brought in investment partners, Michael Tabor, and in more recent times Derrick Smith, enabling him to spread his risk in trying to uncover stallions of the future. It is huge business. And still Magnier recognises the importance of the Derby and its various examinations of the young thoroughbred.
“Somebody alluded only this week to Tesio’s quote about the relevance of the Derby, saying that it has been that piece of wood, the winning post of the Epsom Derby, that has influenced the selection process that has led to the breeding of the thoroughbred. He was right, Vincent [O’Brien] was right.”
O’Brien trained the winners of six Derbies at Epsom, astutely recruiting the horses (and their wealthy owners) to run there. “In Vincent’s time the Derby was the centre of the year, it was the race,” Magnier said
“Maybe, it has lost some of its gloss, but it is the race where all the qualities of a colt are tested. We continue to support it, and run as many as we can, because of this. We run those we feel are entitled to run. It’s a chance for them to prove themselves,” he pointed out.
“I know there are some people, who would like to see it run over a mile and a quarter, but they did that in France, and I don’t think it has improved the French Derby. I’m sure that was a mistake.
“In the United States, they permit geldings to run in their [Kentucky] Derby, but that’s giving the geldings an unfair advantage. They have usually been gelded because there is a mental frailty there. After gelding they are easier to train. Theirs is not a pure Classic like Epsom. The Derby at Epsom has got history and tradition – all people have to do is leave it alone,” he argued.
Much has been reported over the Ballydoyle line-up, which is now expected to be six-strong, and it has still to be decided which colt first jockey Johnny Murtagh will be aboard. Two weeks ago, rumour had it that Murtagh would be aboard Rip Van Winkle, the 2,000 Guineas fourth, then opinion swung back to Fame And Glory.
“After the pair worked on Friday, both Aidan and Johnny thought the main two in the betting, Fame And Glory and Rip Van Winkle, were still going well, but they were also impressed by the improvement shown by Masterofthehorse [second in the Chester Vase]. Friday was probably the most important gallop they have done – and Tuesday will also be a last important check. Johnny will wait as long as he can to decide, which I can understand,” he pointed out.
A major part of Magnier’s liking for sending his best to Epsom is the policy of providing ‘Good’ ground. “The man in charge [Andrew Cooper, clerk of the course] is confident and experienced enough to prepare it the right way. We want safe ground, which he provides. He doesn’t bow to pressure.”
Ballydoyle have not won the Derby since High Chaparral in 2002, but from their enormous battalions in recent years have emerged three Irish Derby winners, as well as Eclipse and St Leger winners. Their backing and understanding of Epsom seems assured.
 
Thank you for posting that, Gal..!

Please note - race referred to throughout article as 'The Derby' - as it should be - so would a moderator PLEASE change the title of this thread.

We might not have a whole load to brag about in Great Britain - and while this is an English race it's definitely part of the National heritage - but this is something we should take pride in and keep its original title of THE DERBY.
 
Songsheet said:
Thank you for posting that, Gal..!

Please note - race referred to throughout article as 'The Derby' - as it should be - so would a moderator PLEASE change the title of this thread.

We might not have a whole load to brag about in Great Britain - and while this is an English race it's definitely part of the National heritage - but this is something we should take pride in and keep its original title of THE DERBY.
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Like I said before, quite right. It's not as if we are calling The Oaks thread, the Epsom Oaks. The only place the Derby is ever referred to as the Epsom Derby is in the US (and that's because they are ever so slightly slow on the uptake there).
 
13 left:

Age Of Aquarius
Black Bear Island
Crowded House
Debussy
Fame And Glory
Gan Amhras
Golden Sword
Kite Wood
Masterofthehorse
Montaff
Rip Van Winkle
Sea The Stars
South Easter
 
Songsheet said:
Thank you for posting that, Gal..!

Please note - race referred to throughout article as 'The Derby' - as it should be - so would a moderator PLEASE change the title of this thread.

We might not have a whole load to brag about in Great Britain - and while this is an English race it's definitely part of the National heritage - but this is something we should take pride in and keep its original title of THE DERBY.
Click to expand...

Agreed! :)
 
Songsheet said:
We might not have a whole load to brag about in Great Britain - and while this is an English race it's definitely part of the National heritage - but this is something we should take pride in .
Click to expand...

So English that a vast majority of the horses, jockeys and trainers are Irish, and the sponsor is a South African investment bank. Says much about our love affair with this quintessentially English tradition that so defines our national heritage we couldn't find one company in corporate UK who was prepared to lend their name to it

I don't have an opinion on the title to be honest, and in any event, the moderating team is 3 oiyrish and me, so I'd lose any vote:p But i would make the point that the Telegraph's article (this most traditional of English papers) makes a reference to;



saying that it has been that piece of wood, the winning post of the Epsom Derby,

O’Brien trained the winners of six Derbies at Epsom,

Theirs is not a pure Classic like Epsom. The Derby at Epsom has got history and tradition

I'm not sure they can make their mind up either, but in truth, i think it's a non-issue, and since the title befalls to the poster (within certains bounds) I suggest those who are seriosuly affronted consider starting the 2010 thread as soon as the winner flashes past the 'piece of wood' in 2009
 
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I think you should change it again and this time write its proper name: Investec Derby.
 
High temperatures quicken Epsom ground

BY RACINGPOST.COM STAFF
7.10PM 1 JUN 2009

UNDERFOOT conditions at the home of the Investec Derby quickened slighty on Monday after temperatures at Epsom hit a high of 24C.

Clerk of the course Andrew Cooper said late on Monday afternoon: "Having walked the course at Epsom I have changed the going to good, good to firm in places from good but that was only to be expected after a dry day."

Cooper expects temperatures to cool at Epsom as the meeting gets closer and will go ahead with plans to water the track on Tuesday.

He continued: "I think it will get cooler and cloudier from Wednesday and through to and including the meeting but there will be nothing appreciable in terms of rainfall.

"We will do a circuit [of watering] during the course of the day to the tune of 6mm and take it from there."

From Turftrax:

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Always dangerous to hang on too much that comes out of Coolmore but is Magnier not saying that Freemantle isn't good enough?

“Maybe, it has lost some of its gloss, but it is the race where all the qualities of a colt are tested. We continue to support it, and run as many as we can, because of this. We run those we feel are entitled to run. It’s a chance for them to prove themselves,” he pointed out.

If he is, then is he also not saying that neither is Black bear Island though by proxy. The O'Brien penchant for horses coming on for their run would seem to suggest that Freemantle would have reversed Dante form.

I'm slightly surprised that with the ammunition they've got, he hasn't sent a couple to Chantilly. Black Bear Island, Freemantle and possibly even RVW might have been suited. They clearly still think a lot of RVW, but I still have my own reservations (though I'd probably conceed that AOB's training record is a bit better than mine at the moment).

He strikes me as a horse that needs a bit of a drag to find his top gear, which looks as if it's there once he engages it, but he does seem to need to get himself settled before deploying it in a 'point and shoot' kind of fashion. He seems to have a turn of foot but it isn't instant when asked for it. The run-in at Epsom is only about 3.5F's once they've cleared Tattenham proper. Mind you, Chantilly appears to be even shorter (although I can't satisfactorily locate the winning post because of cloud or haze). Mind you, using that theory, you'd say Newmarket was ideal and he's twice been turned over there now.
 
I am surprised they are not running Freemantle in France on Sunday rather than waiting for a Group 2 at Ascot. Suggests the horse did not come out of the Dante as well as they hoped rather than it suggesting anything about the horses merits.
 
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It’s not that Freemantle’s no good, but all horse hit their best form at different times and Freemantle will probably be better suited to Ascot anyway.
The Dante is the best trial for the Derby and this year’s was a strong renewal so the first and second must be at least half decent.

There have been indications that Freemantle was the least likely to run of the main set for weeks now.
 
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