The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

pretty sure there isn't but..the time of Famous Name's race is staggeringly faster than the other races on the card bar that for F&G..not got the last race time yet
 
Golden Sword and Mourayan ran good races, Masterofthehorse was disappointing, but I thought that Gan Amhras was particularily disappointing, he dropped away very tamely.
 
bloody hell..need an O level in blind faith to produce speed figures from Irish tracks :)

the first few race times bear little resemblance to the later ones

Using the last 3 races..one to come..I get

132 FAMOUS NAME
122 FAME & GLORY
99 VIA GALILEI

Famous Names figure looks too big but compared to the earlier handicap over 8f it doesn't...did they run on opposite side of the track for Famous Names race?

F&G can easily be rated through the 12f handicap..the figures have no wfa added
 
I can't do Irish time ratings since Raceform never published Standard Times for Irish tracks.

What I can do is work out how much faster one race was compared with another but it is meaningless unless both races are true-run.

Those of you who watch/study a lot of Irish races could perhaps answer the main question I have: are race in Ireland generally true-run or are they more generally like in France where they tee the race up for a fast finish?
 
try the RP times DO..even with them the 8f handicap is slow compared to Famous Name but it says that the handicap came to the stand side..whereas it may be that Famous Name didn't...need some visual clues

where did the races take place..Benbaum is slow compared to Famous Name..can't tie these together...even G3 sprints..did the sprint take place standside?

the only two races I am happy with are the two 12f races..the handicap looks true run
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Benbaun was stands-side as was the Railway Stakes and the winner of the sprint handicap.
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cheers

that makes that side quite slower..but all the races tie together bar for the 2 12f races and Famous Name..Famous Name is unrateable as got nothing to compare

72 MARIAS DREAM
115 BENBAUM
91 MOUNTAIN CORAL
71 ALFRED NOBEL

going: -22 lb (Good/Soft) just
 
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Euronymous said:
Sod the Leger, I took 12s for the Arc after the Derby. Put him away for the Niel Aiden. It's about time one of him top class 3yo's got a proper prep for Paris in October.
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That he surely will seeing as their older horses are not up to much or not as viable as Fame And Glory is as a stallion prospect. You'd think Mastercraftsman or Rip Van Winkle are far more likely to be their 10 furlong horses this year with F&G likely to take in some of those events next year as a 4 year old.
 
Euronymous said:
Sod the Leger, I took 12s for the Arc after the Derby. Put him away for the Niel Aiden. It's about time one of him top class 3yo's got a proper prep for Paris in October.
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I don't see him as an Arc type..doesn't do stuff fast enough..he took time today to pick up..then he did go..won't get that opportunity in the Arc..horses will out manouvre him imo...if they try the pacemaker game over there it won't work the same as today...unless the arc cuts up real bad

he is a classic leger horse..but because its not trendy anymore thats out
 
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I think he has shown enough to warrant plenty of respect in the Arc. In a strongly run race with a bit of an easy he will not find many to beat him.......certainly shown as much pace as the likes of Hurricane Run have.

On another note what has happened Gan Amhras? Looks completely out of love with it all...
 
Fame and Glory


what a pity the run the Derby that way....

I think he should be campaigned with the Arc in mind, and right now he has a much better chance i my book than Stacelitita, Sea The Stars or any older horses,


lets see what happens with the Fabres 3yo in the GP de Paris but in this moment he deserves to be clear favorite for the Arc
 
Congratulations to FAG backers.

O'Brien talking his usual shite afterwards.

"He's got a lot of tactical speed and was very quick to get into his stride"
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Mentioning the amount of 'tactical speed' FAG has - where exactly was this tactical speed in the Derby?? He is an out and stayer, and would be best aimed at the Leger.

Very quick to get into his stride? :D

I was a little unsure before the race, but on good, fast flat ground, Sea the Stars would beat Fame and Glory by a good 3 or 4 lengths. Perhaps FAG could go for the International and they'd meet there?
 
Hamm said:
I was a little unsure before the race, but on good, fast flat ground, Sea the Stars would beat Fame and Glory by a good 3 or 4 lengths. Perhaps FAG could go for the International and they'd meet there?
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This was my point in hoping both should turn up at The Curragh - Fame And Glory will not be going to York, it will be to the Arc where Sea The Stars probably will not turn up or will have turned up after a busy summer. They are most unlikely to meet and right now Fame And Glory is the top ranked 3 year old in training and is likely to have produced the top 3 year old performance over 12 furlongs unless a 3 year old wins the Arc. If stamina is truely not an issue then he should have turned up yesterday.

So exactly what more is Sea The Star's going to prove on Saturday in the Eclipse when he could have supposidly beat a 126 horse over 12 furlongs by 3-4 lengths producing a 130 plus performance....
 
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So, everytime a horse beats an AOB hotpot there must be a rematch? If FAG had the tactical speed described by O'Brien, he would have had no problems in the Derby. He is a strong stayer, not a quick horse per se. Conduit is a much better horse to hope to beat than FAG (who he has already beaten fair and square), and is also of the older generation (not to mind a Breeders Cup Turf winner).
 
Hamm said:
So, everytime a horse beats an AOB hotpot there must be a rematch? If FAG had the tactical speed described by O'Brien, he would have had no problems in the Derby. He is a strong stayer, not a quick horse per se. Conduit is a much better horse to hope to beat than FAG (who he has already beaten fair and square), and is also of the older generation (not to mind a Breeders Cup Turf winner).
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Beating the Leger winner Conduit over 10 furlongs is more worthy than beating Fame And Glory in a strongly run Irish Derby? Give me a break....

The O'Brien comments about tactical speed are no different to Oxx talking about Sea The Stars running well in a July Cup....but you won't jump on that and repeat it and repeat it as you are doing to O'Brien's comments. What's wrong with being a strong stayer? It's a 12 furlong race not a sprint.....you say it as if a strong stayer is a negative.

The ground was perfectly adequate for Sea The Star's yesterday to turn up if connections wanted to, much in the same way the Good To Firm ground was adequate for F&G at Epsom. They clearly had doubts themselves about him getting home again.

No there does not need to be a rematch, but you were the one to mention the next clash so presumably you would liked to have seen it as well.
 
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Leger winner is how you described him. I'd include that, but also say he's a Breeders Cup winner, the highest rated 4 year old at middle distances and the moral winner of the 1m2 Brigadeer Gerard stakes, giving 7 pounds to a good horse and just failing. I would also have Conduit as lowest colt in the betting for the Arc.

It's very fair to say any beating of Conduit would carry a lot more merit, and in many different ways.
 
I would agree: any horse that is able to win a 1m4f race in 2:23,.., no matter on what surface, is certainly not just a slow plodder and merely a Leger winner. High Class horse over any trip in his own right!
 
I'd say it was a smart move by Oxx.

Ballydoyle got the Derby all wrong and STS holds the verdict which no amount of baiting can remove from the history books if they discreetly avoid him from now on until retirement. They had their chance and basically didn't take it with some puzzling tactics (be they jockey error, or trainer instructions being followed to the letter). Oxx is under no obligation to give O'Brien a second chance to put the record straight (PT Barnum) and if he does, then not unlike a 'big fight' the defending champ tends to dictate the terms under which they'll meet.

Given the ownership of STS I'd have thought it possible that he misses the Arc and goes out to the Far East via the BC (although their quarantine rules would preclude from taking in certain combinations of races wouldn't they?). All things being equal, by this time next week he'll have 3 Gp1's to his name at 3 different trips and 2 English classics
 
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