The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

Warbler said:
Ballydoyle got the Derby all wrong and STS holds the verdict which no amount of baiting can remove from the history books if they discreetly avoid him from now on until retirement. They had their chance and basically didn't take it with some puzzling tactics (be they jockey error, or trainer instructions being followed to the letter). Oxx is under no obligation to give O'Brien a second chance to put the record straight (PT Barnum) and if he does, then not unlike a 'big fight' the defending champ tends to dictate the terms under which they'll meet.
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My sentiments exactly.
 
Galileo said:
Beating the Leger winner

you say it as if a strong stayer is a negative.
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This is just getting tiresome, you can't launch a thinly veiled attack on one horse then proceed to big up the similar attributes of another.

On what piece of form Fame And Glory, Rip Van Winkle, or any other Ballydoyle horse is supposed to beat Sea The Stars, I really don't know. If you are backing anything thats finished behind Sea The Stars before in any race over a mile to a mile and a half you are relying on pure speculative improvement, which unless you are privy to information suggesting the horse in question has improved, is a complete mugs move.
 
Galileo said:
If there are no stamina doubts, then it was a real shame he did not turn up today as the ground was fine. He has won on much softer ground in the past.
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If they met in the Arc under similar conditions I'd have no hesitation in backing Fame to beat STS (and I say that as a huge STS fan).
 
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jairducochetfan said:
This is just getting tiresome, you can't launch a thinly veiled attack on one horse then proceed to big up the similar attributes of another.

On what piece of form Fame And Glory, Rip Van Winkle, or any other Ballydoyle horse is supposed to beat Sea The Stars, I really don't know. If you are backing anything thats finished behind Sea The Stars before in any race over a mile to a mile and a half you are relying on pure speculative improvement, which unless you are privy to information suggesting the horse in question has improved, is a complete mugs move.
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The reference to Conduit was in the context of the "Leger winner" running over 10 furlongs....I thought that was quite clear.

Presumably you also backed Delegator to beat Mastercraftsman at The Curragh and Ascot as there was no piece of form MCM had that put him ahead of Delegator on their Newmarket running?

I would point out I have not said Oxx "must" have a rematch...just said it would be nice (this is meant to be a sport no?). I also have not said Sea The Star's would have lost yesterday....I just wanted to see him in a strongly run 12 furlong race. He still could have won yesterday.
 
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According to Oxx, Sea the Stars will be kept going all summer. Plenty of opportunities for Fame and Glory to take him on if Ballydoyle think they have the better horse.
 
Hamm said:
According to Oxx, Sea the Stars will be kept going all summer. Plenty of opportunities for Fame and Glory to take him on if Ballydoyle think they have the better horse.
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Over 12 furlongs? I don't think F&G would beat him over 10 furlongs, we saw that already at Epsom....
 
I was pretty sure it was a 12 furlong race.

Time for O'Brien to put up or shut up ... either FAG has this amazing tactical speed and he can use it to become champion three year old by beating Sea the Stars, or his trainer should cease making inane comments.
 
Hamm said:
I was pretty sure it was a 12 furlong race.

Time for O'Brien to put up or shut up ... either FAG has this amazing tactical speed and he can use it to become champion three year old by beating Sea the Stars, or his trainer should cease making inane comments.
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When is Oxx running his horse in the July Cup?
 
Hamm said:
Time for O'Brien to put up or shut up ... either FAG has this amazing tactical speed and he can use it to become champion three year old by beating Sea the Stars, or his trainer should cease making inane comments.
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So AOB should forego the Arc to hunt down one horse. That is a nonsense imo.
 
Hamm said:
I was pretty sure it was a 12 furlong race.

Time for O'Brien to put up or shut up ... either FAG has this amazing tactical speed and he can use it to become champion three year old by beating Sea the Stars, or his trainer should cease making inane comments.
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Regardless of who is the better horse I think it's fair to say that O'Brien was willing to put it up to Sea The Stars yesterday.
 
Like I said, Fame And Glory is almost sure to stay in training next year so the 10 furlong races are likely to be on his campaign then.
 
I really cannot understand how people are still moaning about the Derby´s pace in order to criticize STS, but they are happy to accept the Irish Derby form as rock solid. Everything/everybody was in favor of F&G at The Curragh. It was meant to be a one-horse race and that´s what it was. GS had the run of the race at Epsom, but it was a very different story yesterday. I don´t think that F&G has improved at all since The Derby. With the weather forecast as it is, STS might skip Sandown as well and run in the KG. It is very difficult to predict this things, but in my book Conduit is a much better horse than both STS and F&G and even Tartan might be very interesting over 12f. It would be fascinating to know Ballymacoll´s plans for this year as they hold the key to the major races in Europe for the rest of the season.
 
G-G said:
Because the probability will be that half his book, for at least the first few years, will be taken up with family mares who he shouldn't be wasted on.
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Darley don´t usually fill half the book of any stallion of theirs. I´d say they would send around 10% of STS book, especially in his first few seasons, when a rapid return of investment is wanted until the horse proves himself as a stallion. That´s what they have been doing with other high-profile sires like Manduro, Authorized, etc...
 
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Euronymous said:
So AOB should forego the Arc to hunt down one horse. That is a nonsense imo.
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His trainer is trying to fool god knows who by saying he has this tactical speed, when anyone could see it was his stamina that won him yesterday's race.

FAG has not improved since the Derrinstown on a line through Mourayan.

I, for the nth time, am flabbergasted at all this talk of a rematch ... the slow early pace seemed to inconvenience Sea the Stars more than anyone else, Sea the Stars was the only horse who looked like winning two out, and he was idling towards the finish, a sure indication there was a lot left. He IS the better horse, not because that is my opinion, but because he has proven it, in no uncertain terms. Ballydoyle had their chance, and made a mess of it.
 
I think they're both top class colts and we should enjoy the races they run whether they meet again or not. Unfortunately the flat doesn't have a be all and end all festival at the end of the season where legends collide a la Kauto and Denman.
 
I would think the Irish Champion Stakes would be the best chance of seeing them meet again, especially as F&G has run the course twice, as well as plenty of horses who are better over 12 putting in good runs (or insane runs in the case of Daylami) in previous runnings.

What I would think though is that it's very possible that F&G is not O'brien's best over 10 furlongs. Both Mastercraftsman and Rip Van Winkle would seem to have a roughly 50/50 chance of beating F&G over the distance I would think.
 
I doubt if AOB will ever run F&G in any 10f races from now on..unless he wants the horse to lose..the horse is stamina through and through..he isn't speed..if he was he would have two derbys under the belt now..not one
 
These constant statements that the Derby was a 10f race are getting boring now. Sea The Stars won the race, he passed the post in front, the recorded distance was 12f. Get over it.
 
Would anyone seriously back F&G against STS on Saturday? Not me ...at all

Hamm is right. The hard pulling of STS early in the derby must have expended some energy and yet he still dominated.

It is arguable that F&G has had his perfect conditions and perfectly run race but that STS has not.....
 
this 10f nonsense is seriously messing the game up

if all these trainers are so obsessed with it then make the Derby 10f and have done with it

a horse ..F&G..wins in a strongly run..some would say pounding gallop over 12f and wins easily...how does dropping it back to 10f make any sense whatsoever?

anytime they drop F&G back to 10f he will be found wanting worse than in the Derby..which was 12f ..albeit slowly run

it seems as though winning at 12f is now a negative and only the mantle of it being "the Derby" is at stake..once a "derby" is under the belt its any 10f race ..as though any further 12f wins is a slight on the horse

what is all this 10f obsession about?

a horse having its arse whipped off so it has 10f on CV...like on Saturday with the filly at the Curragh is seen as showing speed?..don't think so.

I can understand it with STS..as it still apppears we have stamina doubts..trainer + owner do anyway....thats still 50/50 imo..but F&G at 10f?
 
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