The election 2015
- Thread starter trudij
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archie
Senior Jockey
Cameron isn't comfortable with women. Cooper and Burnham are tainted from previous government so Liz Kendall is their best shot. Also the only one who really understands that command of the middle ground wins.
simmo
Senior Jockey
The photo of Andy Burnham on the BBC website earlier today made him look a lot like Virgil Tracy. It has now been changed. Probably because it made him look like Virgil Tracy.
M
marbler
Guest
I found it quite surreal watching Andrew Neill talk about Labours 'overspend' pre-banking crisis.
One or two of us were saying there was an overspend many years ago, fell on deaf ears and we was borderline ridiculed for suggesting it.
But there you go, here we are in 2015, talking about an overspend, selling our gold off on the cheap, some 8 + years after it happened.
I fully acknowledge Labour was reckless with the economy as I was one of the people saying it at the time, but I really will be depressed if this is a major talking point going into the 2020 election.
If the Conservatives still have the media talking about this in five years Labour really are fecked for a generation and the conservatives are laughing. It happened, but time moves on.
As for Labour leadership, a real mountain to climb, but Cooper is the best choice.
One or two of us were saying there was an overspend many years ago, fell on deaf ears and we was borderline ridiculed for suggesting it.
But there you go, here we are in 2015, talking about an overspend, selling our gold off on the cheap, some 8 + years after it happened.
I fully acknowledge Labour was reckless with the economy as I was one of the people saying it at the time, but I really will be depressed if this is a major talking point going into the 2020 election.
If the Conservatives still have the media talking about this in five years Labour really are fecked for a generation and the conservatives are laughing. It happened, but time moves on.
As for Labour leadership, a real mountain to climb, but Cooper is the best choice.
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I'm sure someone will tell you that the sell off of the gold was a Goldman Sachs carry trade that had gone toxic and was going to leave them with something like £15Bn black hole when it was called in. It was, in many respects, the very first banking bail out, but in truth the scale of the figures that would ultimately emerge from the credit crunch dwarfed those that were involved in the gold sale anyway. We long ago passed the point where that would have made the slightest dent in the thing
M
marbler
Guest
Aye, it was just on a long list of things that people (including those much more up to speed with it all), such as a guy call Insomniac on The Racing Forum were saying. The gold sell off to China epitomised the attitude at the time more than anything, we've got loads of assets and dosh and we'll just go for hell for leather with it. **** it away as some sort of political gesture of good will to China.
What Labour need now is not to imitate fiscal conservatism mixed with ideological cuts to screw those at the bottom, they need to show fiscal sense and seize any opportunity they get. The first one is what Warbler has already said, the referendum on the E.U.
The polls suggest people will vote to stay in, by 66/33, but that could change massively nearer the time.
If Labour can get together a coherent message about why we should stay in the E.U, without sounding like they favour an immigration and political union free-for-all, they'll do well.
What Labour need now is not to imitate fiscal conservatism mixed with ideological cuts to screw those at the bottom, they need to show fiscal sense and seize any opportunity they get. The first one is what Warbler has already said, the referendum on the E.U.
The polls suggest people will vote to stay in, by 66/33, but that could change massively nearer the time.
If Labour can get together a coherent message about why we should stay in the E.U, without sounding like they favour an immigration and political union free-for-all, they'll do well.
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Not that it will bother many on this forum but one labour candidate isa clear bigot with sinister views
http://leftfootforward.org/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-jeremy-corbyn/
certainly one policy in life is to judge people by their friends. When someone cheerleads a preacher who throws about infantile Jew hatred and 9/11 lies, then you wonder why the millibands don't come out an condem the pig
lone nutter would do though.
http://leftfootforward.org/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-jeremy-corbyn/
certainly one policy in life is to judge people by their friends. When someone cheerleads a preacher who throws about infantile Jew hatred and 9/11 lies, then you wonder why the millibands don't come out an condem the pig
lone nutter would do though.
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Mrble
the coherent case for the eu is the one put forward by Nigel Lawson a year or so ago. Labour would do well to follow that lead, ie, no further integration whatsoever and absolutely no prospect of joining the failed euro. That is probably very in tune with the country although to that I would add a massive cull of the 40000 "workers" and one parliament building only
if they do not articulate this, the Tin ear towards economics and business that is so associated with labour will be suspected by voters and they won't have it. The suspicion that they would be pushed around and dragged into the "project" further will stick
for all his faults, I believe Gordon brown would have strongly articulated this to the electorate
the coherent case for the eu is the one put forward by Nigel Lawson a year or so ago. Labour would do well to follow that lead, ie, no further integration whatsoever and absolutely no prospect of joining the failed euro. That is probably very in tune with the country although to that I would add a massive cull of the 40000 "workers" and one parliament building only
if they do not articulate this, the Tin ear towards economics and business that is so associated with labour will be suspected by voters and they won't have it. The suspicion that they would be pushed around and dragged into the "project" further will stick
for all his faults, I believe Gordon brown would have strongly articulated this to the electorate
icebreaker
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If any person had an inclination towards voting Corbyn as leader, they should be made aware of -- and read -- the above article. I am certain that if they had any shred of decency they would immediately reverse their voting intention.
How this vile man with such vile views can now be even considered as a candidate is incomprehensible. He should straightaway declare his withdrawal from the contest.
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Yes. But for all the supposed bias in the media where is the bbc and so on? A Tory candidate who blatantly cheerleads a facist with race hate views would be hammered .
Having said aid that there are a number in the Labour Party who will vote for him because of his association with these views. And most will be very aware given that this was well reported a couple of years back
Having said aid that there are a number in the Labour Party who will vote for him because of his association with these views. And most will be very aware given that this was well reported a couple of years back
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BennyB
Senior Jockey
Pay £3, get a vote in the contest, vote Corbyn, labour are shagged in 2020. Sounds like a plan.
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M
marbler
Guest
The reason this may not be getting much airplay by the media is simply because its essentially a non story. He is a hardcore left winger, who no doubt has positioned himself to the complete opposite of the right wing isreali lobbi. . Sounds like you kind of don't agree with his opinion so you think the entire media should play along and start a character assassination on him ? I read the article and its politcal dogma at its very best, knit picking upon every tiny comment the mans ever made. Just sounds a bit over the top really, people take words too seriously, actions will always speak louder than words.
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Or perhaps become leader, as was the case.
I can think of one very obvious example of a murderous facist regime that made race discrimination the centre point of their whole political philosophy that the conservative openly supported.
Admittedly it took them 20 years before David Cameron finally apologised on behalf of the conservative party for their support and funding of the regime concerned, prompting Bernard Ingham to exclaim "I sometimes wonder if he even is a conservative". Says something about the Tories that Ingham seems to have regarded such views as being a qualification to be one
The same Prime Minister incidentally who intervened to ensure that a muderous fascist dictator momentarily held in the UK on a Swedish request for extradition (the same country indicting Asange by way of double standard) was released on grounds of "ill health" and allowed to return to Chile where he promptly leapt from his wheelchair and produced a series of sommersaults down the tarmac (died about 5 years later) but for such time as he was holed up on the Wentworth estate with Sarah Fergusson, he was described by the Tories as "a friend of Britain"
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No one ia interested in 30 years ago and pinochet was not "race hate"
A big so fcking what?
Its the here and now and we could see a mainstream party leader who actively promotes hatred towards jews
He wont win of course but the fact he is on the ticket speaks volumes
A big so fcking what?
Its the here and now and we could see a mainstream party leader who actively promotes hatred towards jews
He wont win of course but the fact he is on the ticket speaks volumes
You'd be hard pressed to find a regime filled with more race hate than South Africa, Clive. You asked for an example of one and I found you one that ticked both boxes
But just to clarify, as even by your standards, the second post is remarkable.
You believe that the passage of time erodes the legitimacy of the grievance and can be answered by way of defence with "so fcking what" because "no one is interested" (as if a public popularity poll should be the burden of justice anyway)
I think you'd be better off following Cameron's lead in this instance rather than trying to excuse it based on time lapse.
Thatcher also directly bankrolled groups like UNITA, as warlords like Jonah Savimbi were going through the front door of number 10 to pick up his cheques too. Lots of people died as a result of this support, I don't think it can be dismissed so glibly
icebreaker
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Failing to see the relevance between pre-apartheid South Africa and the candidacy of Jeremy Corbyn, mehself. That was then; this is now.
Seems to me like you are engaging in an exercise of deflecting away from the issue.
Address the issue, old fruit. Do you or do you not condemn Corbyn's enunciation ( well-documented) of rabid anti-Jewish racism???
Or, -- accepting that your default position is to rush to the defence of any loony socialist -- are you saying that anti-Black racism (apartheid) is awful, but anti-Jewish race-hating is less evil and brushable-away?
Seems to me like you are engaging in an exercise of deflecting away from the issue.
Address the issue, old fruit. Do you or do you not condemn Corbyn's enunciation ( well-documented) of rabid anti-Jewish racism???
Or, -- accepting that your default position is to rush to the defence of any loony socialist -- are you saying that anti-Black racism (apartheid) is awful, but anti-Jewish race-hating is less evil and brushable-away?
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Precisely. Completely irrelevant to present day
Its all whatabout whatabout and thatcher thatcher thatcher. All very living in the past
I expect we will soon get the old but very enjoyable favourite. Daily mail supported the blackshirts.
But it does in many ways encapsulate the left entirely.
1. Living in the past. Thatcher thatcher thatcher
2. Unable to address current issues.
and perhaps most perfectly, the refusal to address your own problems by attempting to point out that your opponents problems were just as bad (very very debatable). ... 30'years ago
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/58...rbyn-attacked-calling-Hezbollah-Hamas-friends
the two groups refer repeatedly to Jews and not Israelis. Needless to say their views on the rights of anyone other than a straight male Muslim are pretty foul.
Labour is is I a real mess when it has a clear Jew hater with total contempt for basic human rights as a leading candidate . With support from flabbot and others. I cannot believe that milliband has nothing to say about this
ir a Tory candidate spoke up in support of the ku klux klan or even the bnp (who don't actually advocate genocide) then the bbc would be all over this. Non stop
the lack of reporting and analysis is a disgrace
this is an excellent piece on this.
http://www.politico.eu/article/labour-hamas-london-ira/
the two groups refer repeatedly to Jews and not Israelis. Needless to say their views on the rights of anyone other than a straight male Muslim are pretty foul.
Labour is is I a real mess when it has a clear Jew hater with total contempt for basic human rights as a leading candidate . With support from flabbot and others. I cannot believe that milliband has nothing to say about this
ir a Tory candidate spoke up in support of the ku klux klan or even the bnp (who don't actually advocate genocide) then the bbc would be all over this. Non stop
the lack of reporting and analysis is a disgrace
this is an excellent piece on this.
http://www.politico.eu/article/labour-hamas-london-ira/
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Weren't you telling us a few days ago that Lebanon was a template for the region?
"Lebanon has also shown the way forward. That state was an absolute basket case not so very long ago and the factions were all over the place. Now they have a working democratic system which now has the support of a whopping majority of the population. This is again a significant template"
Hezbollah are a part of this template (an important one) and indeed have cabinet ministers (as do AMAL). I'm not sure you can have it both ways? By your own extended definition you believe that Hezbollah have shown us the way forward if you're invoking the Lebanese government as an example of what can be achieved.
Also, Hezbollah remain by far and a way the most capable Shia military organisation in this area of the middle east, and were it not for them the likelihood is that south west Syria would have fallen to the Islamic State by now, who would themselves by advancing into Lebanon and fighting in Jordan.
I couldn't be bothered to wade my way through all your other lengthy link (TLDR). I lost interest when it conceeded that Corbyn had been vindicated on a number of the unpopular causes he'd adopted previously.
"As a campaigning international socialist, Corbyn has supported a wide variety of causes, including the anti-apartheid movement, the Hugo Chavez campaign, Irish unity and opposing the invasion of Iraq. In many cases, he has been vindicated; he backed the Guildford Four, for instance, long before they were found to be wrongly convicted of bombing a pub for the IRA in 1974".
I think the unpublished sub text is that he'd been right, and that the authors had been wrong previously. I'd tread carefully as a consequence. These issues are intrinsically complicated and often throw up counter intuitive solutions and outcomes. In a lot of cases though, if you want a peace settlement in any trouble spot, you invaribaly have to consider embracing the protagonists at some point.
"Lebanon has also shown the way forward. That state was an absolute basket case not so very long ago and the factions were all over the place. Now they have a working democratic system which now has the support of a whopping majority of the population. This is again a significant template"
Hezbollah are a part of this template (an important one) and indeed have cabinet ministers (as do AMAL). I'm not sure you can have it both ways? By your own extended definition you believe that Hezbollah have shown us the way forward if you're invoking the Lebanese government as an example of what can be achieved.
Also, Hezbollah remain by far and a way the most capable Shia military organisation in this area of the middle east, and were it not for them the likelihood is that south west Syria would have fallen to the Islamic State by now, who would themselves by advancing into Lebanon and fighting in Jordan.
I couldn't be bothered to wade my way through all your other lengthy link (TLDR). I lost interest when it conceeded that Corbyn had been vindicated on a number of the unpopular causes he'd adopted previously.
"As a campaigning international socialist, Corbyn has supported a wide variety of causes, including the anti-apartheid movement, the Hugo Chavez campaign, Irish unity and opposing the invasion of Iraq. In many cases, he has been vindicated; he backed the Guildford Four, for instance, long before they were found to be wrongly convicted of bombing a pub for the IRA in 1974".
I think the unpublished sub text is that he'd been right, and that the authors had been wrong previously. I'd tread carefully as a consequence. These issues are intrinsically complicated and often throw up counter intuitive solutions and outcomes. In a lot of cases though, if you want a peace settlement in any trouble spot, you invaribaly have to consider embracing the protagonists at some point.
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So you are happy for your favoured labour candidate to strongly endorse race hate and terrorism? As well as islamist causes
Will get 2000 words of drivel rather than simple yes or no of course
But this all serves as a usrful expose of the hard left to the wider public.
The lebanon point is just too funny
Will get 2000 words of drivel rather than simple yes or no of course
But this all serves as a usrful expose of the hard left to the wider public.
The lebanon point is just too funny
I see you've been allowed out for the day again
OK, try this one before you go round putting words in my mouth. See if you can find anywhere on this thread, or any other thread for that matter, where I've said Corbyn is my "favoured labour candidate". Perhaps when you fail to find an endorsement for him you'll be so good as to accept as much and just perhaps, you might have the decency to say sorry, before I bother answering your question.
You really are a time waster Clive, who just runs around putting words in people's mouth and wantonly interpreting what you want to imagine they've said. It's little wonder you keep making so many catastrophically bad judgement calls in this field.
As regards Lebanon, will you accept that Hezbollah have been an active member of the Lebanese government for a number of years now (that's not hard to verify), and that last week you posted exactly as I quoted?
It's not my fault if you think the Lebanese government is some kind of "significant template" is it? I'm afraid that's your fault. I never said for one second that Lebanon was a template, only you, and you alone on this forum have suggested that. I think it's you who needs to explain why the model that you're advocating includes such anti Israeli terrorists amongst it, but I'll speculate that you didn't know that Hezbollah had cabinet seats, and that you've been caught out and haven't got an answer.
I think you could attempt an answer incidentally along the lines of needing to bring all parties together in order to establish a peace accord, a b it liek how the Afghan government have sat down with the Taleban (or some of the Taleban) but I look forward to your explanation if that is indeed how you think things should develop, especially as it's so similar in concept that which Jeremy Corbyn has advocated
OK, try this one before you go round putting words in my mouth. See if you can find anywhere on this thread, or any other thread for that matter, where I've said Corbyn is my "favoured labour candidate". Perhaps when you fail to find an endorsement for him you'll be so good as to accept as much and just perhaps, you might have the decency to say sorry, before I bother answering your question.
You really are a time waster Clive, who just runs around putting words in people's mouth and wantonly interpreting what you want to imagine they've said. It's little wonder you keep making so many catastrophically bad judgement calls in this field.
As regards Lebanon, will you accept that Hezbollah have been an active member of the Lebanese government for a number of years now (that's not hard to verify), and that last week you posted exactly as I quoted?
It's not my fault if you think the Lebanese government is some kind of "significant template" is it? I'm afraid that's your fault. I never said for one second that Lebanon was a template, only you, and you alone on this forum have suggested that. I think it's you who needs to explain why the model that you're advocating includes such anti Israeli terrorists amongst it, but I'll speculate that you didn't know that Hezbollah had cabinet seats, and that you've been caught out and haven't got an answer.
I think you could attempt an answer incidentally along the lines of needing to bring all parties together in order to establish a peace accord, a b it liek how the Afghan government have sat down with the Taleban (or some of the Taleban) but I look forward to your explanation if that is indeed how you think things should develop, especially as it's so similar in concept that which Jeremy Corbyn has advocated
Totally stupid
i know full well Hezbollah had seats. Who's putting words in mouth now?
if the bnp had seats in uk Parliament (and they are far far less virulent then Hezbollah in their race views) would be ok for a Tory candidate to claim that they are our "friends"?
confused or what
lastky if corbyn wants to back Islamists or Palestinians or whatever he doesn't have to choose hate preachers and terrorist organisations both of whom regularly refer to Jews rather than Israelis as the enemy
but he chooses to do so
which says it all doesn't it
i know full well Hezbollah had seats. Who's putting words in mouth now?
if the bnp had seats in uk Parliament (and they are far far less virulent then Hezbollah in their race views) would be ok for a Tory candidate to claim that they are our "friends"?
confused or what
lastky if corbyn wants to back Islamists or Palestinians or whatever he doesn't have to choose hate preachers and terrorist organisations both of whom regularly refer to Jews rather than Israelis as the enemy
but he chooses to do so
which says it all doesn't it
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