The election 2015

Warbler said:
I see you've been allowed out for the day again

OK, try this one before you go round putting words in my mouth. See if you can find anywhere on this thread, or any other thread for that matter, where I've said Corbyn is my "favoured labour candidate". Perhaps when you fail to find an endorsement for him you'll be so good as to accept as much and just perhaps, you might have the decency to say sorry, before I bother answering your question.

You really are a time waster Clive, who just runs around putting words in people's mouth and wantonly interpreting what you want to imagine they've said. It's little wonder you keep making so many catastrophically bad judgement calls in this field.

As regards Lebanon, will you accept that Hezbollah have been an active member of the Lebanese government for a number of years now (that's not hard to verify), and that last week you posted exactly as I quoted?

It's not my fault if you think the Lebanese government is some kind of "significant template" is it? I'm afraid that's your fault. I never said for one second that Lebanon was a template, only you, and you alone on this forum have suggested that. I think it's you who needs to explain why the model that you're advocating includes such anti Israeli terrorists amongst it, but I'll speculate that you didn't know that Hezbollah had cabinet seats, and that you've been caught out and haven't got an answer.

I think you could attempt an answer incidentally along the lines of needing to bring all parties together in order to establish a peace accord, a b it liek how the Afghan government have sat down with the Taleban (or some of the Taleban) but I look forward to your explanation if that is indeed how you think things should develop, especially as it's so similar in concept that which Jeremy Corbyn has advocated
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Give over with the obfuscation, and answer the f'king question!

What question? Specifically, so that there is no more pettifogging, the one that Clive asked you!
And that I asked you also, which you artfully dodged by taking a week's holiday from this thread. I.E.,:
"Do you or do you not condemn Corbyn's enunciation ( well-documented) of rabid anti-Jewish racism???"

A Yes or No will suffice, and we can then put this matter to bed.
 
It wasn't even a tough question ffs

Mine could have been answered by "I'm not happy but on balance I'm backing him because of his anti austerity policies" blah blah

but in fact I couldn't give a toss about the answer
 
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Why I think this is a complete waste of time is that using my point about Lebanon from another thread to justify hezbollahs views is frankly just crap

any idiot could clearly see that the point was democracy can work in the middle east. Any idiot would also know that the system cannot be held responsible for who is elected

the point about the Taliban is dismal too. On "religious grounds" They will not under any circumstances accept democracy in any shape or form
 
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clivex said:
I didn't out word ps in mouth.....obviosly
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You said "So you are happy for your favoured labour candidate to strongly endorse race hate and terrorism? As well as islamist causes"

I've asked you to find any instance, anywhere, where I've stated that I support Corbyn. So yes you are putting words in my mouth, and until such time as you admit as much (or provide the evidence to sustain your misrepresentation) then no I'm not answering the question and don't see why I should do. You by contrast have openly supported a template for the middle east that includes Hezbollah in a government. The difference being is I'm not putting words in your mouth, I quoted verbatim what you posted, and will do so again.

"Lebanon has also shown the way forward. That state was an absolute basket case not so very long ago and the factions were all over the place. Now they have a working democratic system which now has the support of a whopping majority of the population. This is again a significant template"

You believe Lebanon has "shown the way forward" (by including Hezbollah) and "have a working democratic system" (as a result) and that in terms of the region their model represents "a significant template"

I actually said "I'll speculate that you didn't know that Hezbollah had cabinet seats" - which of course leaves open the possibility that you did, and invites you to say otherwise (which you have). By contrast you didn't do that. Instead you stated something as fact when in actual fact I've never said anything of the sort, which is why you can't find the evidence

Now that you've clarified you were well aware that Hezbollah are a part of the government, you can probably begin to understand the position better. I'm sure you'll agree that Hezbollah have been listed as a terrorist organisation. Yet despite this you've been prepared to recognise them as part of the solution in Lebanon. That's not unusual, even if it seems inconsistent with your often observed rhetoric.

I think you're taking a similar step to that trodden before with many of the groups mentioned in the same breath. At what part do you continue to prosecute conflict, or do you at some point sit down pragmatically and conceed that the group concerned aren't going away, and that an accommodation is needed? In a lot of cases, this is exactly the same process that the Trotskyist left went through when they were getting pilloried for premature engagement with various groups.

My own suspicion is that it isn't going to work with Islamists though. I think those groups who take their influence from political philosophies and economic grievances are much more open to deals than those who are soaked in religious dogma
 
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clivex said:
Why I think this is a complete waste of time is ..................
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I'll never consider it a waste of time to call out and confront anti-semitic hateshit wherever and whenever it raises its ugly head. Corbyn included.
 
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icebreaker said:
Give over with the obfuscation, and answer the f'king question!

What question? Specifically, so that there is no more pettifogging, the one that Clive asked you!
And that I asked you also, which you artfully dodged by taking a week's holiday from this thread. I.E.,:
"Do you or do you not condemn Corbyn's enunciation ( well-documented) of rabid anti-Jewish racism???"

A Yes or No will suffice, and we can then put this matter to bed.
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Simple answer then

No I don't support his anti-Jewsih positions
I don't support his candidacy either, as I think he'd lead us into some incredibly dangerous situtions (domestically more than internationally)
I'm a lot less vexed however by his entering into dialogue etc that can sometimes lead to good things (laws on unintended consequences)
I'm not however totally comfortable with the creation of a Zionist state though (but don't have any workable alternative solution)
I'm not convinced however that many of these problems wouldn't have developed anyway with or without Israel, but don't know that
 
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Warbler said:
no I'm not answering the question and don't see why I should do.
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I am hugely disappointed in you, then.
You are not the man I thought you were.
By your refusal to answer (condemn), you have transgressed and violated all true socialist tenets ............ never mind human ethics and values.
 
I haven't read it all warbler and acknowledge I thought he was your favoured candidate given that you refuse to criticise him

hamas participated in democracy and strangely have forgotten to have subsequent elections. Same as the nazis. MB too quite possibly so last para is right if they hold power.

quite right ice. He quite likely won't win but if he did I think the issue of his support for such views and terrorism will destroy the labour party once and for all
 
icebreaker said:
I am hugely disappointed in you, then.
You are not the man I thought you were.
By your refusal to answer (condemn), you have transgressed and violated all true socialist tenets ............ never mind human ethics and values.
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Oh give over, I've answered the bloody question (sorry if it isn't he answer you wanted to hear). Lets see if Clive's prepared to address his contradictory position on Hezbollah shall we?
 
Oops, cross-posted with yours at the exact same minute.
Thanks for stating your position.
Withdrawing my above (premature) response in reciprocation. :)
 
clivex said:
I haven't read it all warbler and acknowledge I thought he was your favoured candidate given that you refuse to criticise him
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So that you are aware then, I don't have a favoured candidate. I tend to think it's a dire choice amongst a generation of poor politicians (albeit Corbyn isn't from the 1980's formative influence cohort)
 
clivex said:
Why I think this is a complete waste of time is that using my point about Lebanon from another thread to justify hezbollahs views is frankly just crap

any idiot could clearly see that the point was democracy can work in the middle east. Any idiot would also know that the system cannot be held responsible for who is elected

the point about the Taliban is dismal too. On "religious grounds" They will not under any circumstances accept democracy in any shape or form
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it was clearly answered and I don't think there is anything difficult to understand there
 
I thought osbournes budget this week was very very smart. Whether or not it's agreed with or whether it will stack up, it's set a marker that he's politcially astute. Hasn't always been the case maybe but I would back him as next leader over the buffoon. Should be remembered that personally he's well liked in parliament, even across parties. His public image is at odds with reality by many accounts . And Not being particularly liked possibly did for David milliband
 
Never ever thought I would say this but harman has been impressive. The party needs to take heed of her because it is facing oblivion.
 
clivex said:
Never ever thought I would say this but harman has been impressive. The party needs to take heed of her because it is facing oblivion.
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the tories are as well if they keep displaying the kind of ante average person mentality they are displaying this week..as soon as they get power..by supporting the bringing back of folk in uniforms killing animals and the destruction of unionism. The fact that the utter cowardice of not having having a vote because they know they would lose makes them spineless just adds to the view of what sort of rubbish they are...complete yellow backs who if they can't get their own slanted way they don't play...totally gutless mard arse shitbags.

like i said before..the tories only get in by using the ignorance of experience of the electorate..once normal man in late 20's has witnessed their vile ways ..they don't vote em in for a good while...trouble is he votes em in once then can't turn teh tide for a few years

Everything about a human being that is despicable in a man is displayed by the tory menatlity...elitism..greed ..arrogance...cowardice... absolutely nothing of merit is embedded within..those who have been tories for years are mentally ill imo...or just don't know any better or really have any moral fibre.......any working person that gets turned their way wants the old head looking at to see if any decency actually exists within unless they see the light:).

vile critters imo..just my view:)
 
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The thing is...should Labour shadow (or mirror) the Tory party just for a short term and perceived better chance at power, or be a centre left party and try its best?

I know someone quite senior in the party and were he to ask for my advice I'd advise him to do the latter. It's not so much about left or right, its about the party actually looking like it knows its own character and identity after a generation in power when it didn't know it was actually going backwards.

To lose on what you actually stand for is surely better than to lose whilst perpetuating your oppostion's arguments, which is the route they may be heading down soon.

As I said after the election, Milliband positioned himself in the right area policy wise, the problem was the public didn't see him as PM material, and the Conservative movement/narrative has gained more tract in the past 5 years than Labours.

The cheekiest thing is when Mandleson and co come out to criticize the positioning of the Labour Party after the election, when they were the ones who positioned the political vehicle in such a short sighted, incoherent, and unmaintainable long term position in the first place...
 
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i've just listened to that Marb..wonderful woman..nothing in that you would ever get from a morally bankrupt ..fox chasing.. money grubbing ..tory that is for sure. Just shows what a decent person sees in the vile chamber now run by the detestable group of folk that are now unfortunately in power. I'll guess after that some Tory gonk got up and spun the ...northern powerhouse..long term econimic plan ...spiel only an total empty head would repeat..god how i detest the morons that stand up and do that..or is that only at question time when the whole country can witness what muppets the tories really are.
 
marble said:
The thing is...should Labour shadow (or mirror) the Tory party just for a better chance at power, or be a centre left party and try its very best?

I know someone quite senior in the party and were he to ask for my advice I'd advise him to do the latter.

To lose on what you actually stand for is surely better than to lose whilst perpetuating your oppostion's arguments, which is the route they may be heading down soon.

As I said after the election, Milliband positioned himself in the right area policy wise, the problem was the public didn't see him as PM material, and the Conservative movement/narrative has gained more tract in the past 5 years than Labours has.

The cheekiest thing is when Mandleson and co come out to criticize the positioning of the Labour Party after the election, when they were the ones who positioned the political vehicle in such a short sighted and unmaintainable long term position in the first place!
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i think if you want power you have to now aim your poilicies towards the greedy..if you don't you lose. I actually think that politics now is just about greed and selfishness..more than ever before...this country now only votes in who can help them..selfishness now over rides everything.

i actually think the whole system is riddled with basically narcissistic mentality..i'm alright and don't give a f00k about anyone that isn't. Maybe as a society we are morally f00ked..greed rules..reminds me of the 80's and all the greed mentality that bred in the country then..some real scumbags made lots of money then...i've got lots and if you haven't..or if you are ill or old ..then f00k you attitude. We are still suffering that uncaring greedy mentality imo.
 
Agree with that EC1. The greed and self-serving thing is not just the MPs', across all walks of life this happens.

If you watched our television channels you'd think you were walking on paradise, until you go out and see the reality of what some people and organisations are about in society.
Gawd, I sound like an old man, I'm bloody thirty year old!
 
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