The Road to Foundry winning the St Leger

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Euronymous said:
It can't be long till this becomes a Group 2 surely.
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I think that's harsh. The Epsom form was well represented today, along with a couple of progressive, unexposed types.

It's not the race's fault that the 3yo middle distance crop is - for the second year running - shite.
 
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Since the turn of the century how many Leger winners could be described as bono fido Group 1 performers - Milan, Brian Boru, Scorpion, Sixties Icon and Conduit.
 
Euronymous said:
Since the turn of the century how many Leger winners could be described as bono fido Group 1 performers - Milan, Brian Boru, Scorpion, Sixties Icon and Conduit.
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you could say the same about the sprinting division..i don't know the figures but i'll bet if you split the distances into [5+6f] [8f-12f] [13f+] and found the average G1 winning ratings in each section you would get something like 115 - 123 - 118

the whole game is based towards the 8f-12f range..best horses are there...the other distances are bound to be of lower ratings

you could actually say that 95% of G1 sprints should be g2's if you look at the winners ratings
 
EC1 said:
Maybe we need different levels for each distance group...its not really fair expecting sprinters or long distance horses to be as good as the middle ground animals
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This baffles me

They are better at sprinting than middle distance horses and the stayers are better at 2miles than milers are. To me its like saying an opening batsman cant be a great but a number 4 can

and why are people always moaning about this. the leger is a fine race usually won by the best horse. If thats the best stayer around then thats all i need to know. Bollocks to what breeders think
 
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What a desperate excuse for a classic and a group one.

Ladbrokes are shorter about the winner for the Arc than Al Kazeem. You genuinely want sectioning if you take less than three figures on this boat with no form to win the best middle distance race in the world.
 
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And you would want sectioning if you backed al kazeem in next years gold cup. the best stayers race in the world
 
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Point is simple

There is nothing wrong with certain stayers races or sprints being group ones simply because we are looking at the best of that division regardless of whether the breeders or ratings nerds think other wise

You dont downgrade a sprint group one because the winner isnt as good over a mile or a stayers because it isnt as good over 12f
 
I don't disagree with any of that.

I was simply saying it was a poor renewal and Leading Light is a terrible price for the Arc.
 
clivex said:
You dont downgrade a sprint group one because the winner isnt as good over a mile or a stayers because it isnt as good over 12f
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The point is that over sprint and extreme distances it's quite common for exposed handicappers - the likes of Markab and Simenon for example, to be competitive at Group 1 level in those type races. You'd never get that over 8/12f.
 
i agree with that and fair point. But just feel that the group one status has to be maintained

and gamla...thats true. I wouldnt touch him for the arc
 
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Gamla Stan said:
What a desperate excuse for a classic and a group one.

Ladbrokes are shorter about the winner for the Arc than Al Kazeem. You genuinely want sectioning if you take less than three figures on this boat with no form to win the best middle distance race in the world.
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What twoddle - the runner up won the Oaks , the third has been placed in two Derbies and the fourth runner up in our Derby .

This is a Group 1 race. The fact that the three year olds have not been the very best this year or in 2012 is not the fault of the race. :rolleyes:
 
Ardross said:
What twoddle - the runner up won the Oaks , the third has been placed in two Derbies and the fourth runner up in our Derby .

This is a Group 1 race. The fact that the three year olds have not been the very best this year or in 2012 is not the fault of the race. :rolleyes:
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How is it twoddle? The Derby and Oaks were also poor races this year and in my opinion, this was a very weak Group One race. Just because the Derby and the Oaks principals were running doesn't mean it was a good race. The two best three year olds in training arguably run in Paris today. Euro is right, there have been very few good winners of the race in recent years.

The fact the winner is quoted shorter than a multiple all aged group one winner for the best race in the world is a farce.
 
clivex said:
This baffles me

They are better at sprinting than middle distance horses and the stayers are better at 2miles than milers are. To me its like saying an opening batsman cant be a great but a number 4 can

and why are people always moaning about this. the leger is a fine race usually won by the best horse. If thats the best stayer around then thats all i need to know. Bollocks to what breeders think
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you misunderstanding my point Clive..my fault for not explaining

what i'm saying is that we should not expect G1 sprinters or stayers to gain the same ratings as mile middle horses...simply because the best horses are in those middle distances and always will be..in fact the way things are going 8f-10f will be where they are and 12f races will start throwing up ratings like sprinters/stayers.

i think each group should be treated separately if we are to judge how good a G1 is in that range.

Lets say we take an average of the last 20 Legers and the average winners rating is 118...then that should be the expectation of an average renewal. As it is, the expectation level for sprinters/stayers is the same is middle horses..which means each time a sprinter or stayer runs a G1 rating win of 118 its deemed below par compared with your middle horses who will be earning 123+ for many of their G1's.

If a sprinter or stayer gets a 125 then it should be looked on as above average...whereas if a middle horse earns that in KG or Arc Eclipse etc..it is deemed as slightly below average

For example...the average OHR given to a Nunthorpe winner over the last 10 years is 116.

If an Arc winner..or Eclipse..or whatever race threw up a 116 winner i think it would be deemed well below par..as it is..its the average for one of the highest profile sprints of the season..because generally that division does not have the same level of horse as the "popular" division does.
 
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reet hard said:
If he's got the speed for an Arc, I'll pack up betting.
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He's shown decent speed at 10 furlongs earlier in the season remember. But after today Ruler is probably back at the top of the pecking order.

Middle distance Classic form this season isn't nearly as bad as people might think.
 
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All 12 Group 1 races have now been run in Ireland this season and no one trainer won more than one.

What were the odds on that ?
 
SteveM said:
He's shown decent speed at 10 furlongs earlier in the season remember. But after today Ruler is probably back at the top of the pecking order.

Middle distance Classic form this season isn't nearly as bad as people might think.
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Over 100 yds, Mo Farah would look quite nippy against me.
Against Usain Bolt, a different picture might begin to emerge.
 
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EC1 said:
you misunderstanding my point Clive..my fault for not explaining

what i'm saying is that we should not expect G1 sprinters or stayers to gain the same ratings as mile middle horses...simply because the best horses are in those middle distances and always will be..in fact the way things are going 8f-10f will be where they are and 12f races will start throwing up ratings like sprinters/stayers.

i think each group should be treated separately if we are to judge how good a G1 is in that range.

Lets say we take an average of the last 20 Legers and the average winners rating is 118...then that should be the expectation of an average renewal. As it is, the expectation level for sprinters/stayers is the same is middle horses..which means each time a sprinter or stayer runs a G1 rating win of 118 its deemed below par compared with your middle horses who will be earning 123+ for many of their G1's.

If a sprinter or stayer gets a 125 then it should be looked on as above average...whereas if a middle horse earns that in KG or Arc Eclipse etc..it is deemed as slightly below average

For example...the average OHR given to a Nunthorpe winner over the last 10 years is 116.

If an Arc winner..or Eclipse..or whatever race threw up a 116 winner i think it would be deemed well below par..as it is..its the average for one of the highest profile sprints of the season..because generally that division does not have the same level of horse as the "popular" division does.
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Cheers but have to say none of this bothers me much. Way i see it is that the leger is a good betting heat with some form in the book and usually won by the best horse in race. I like stayers races and the winners are often admirable horses

Because the winners are a fraction below the very best in the middle distance sphere doesn't bother me at all. In fact it simply doesn't matter
 
clivex said:
Cheers but have to say none of this bothers me much. Way i see it is that the leger is a good betting heat with some form in the book and usually won by the best horse in race.
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I don't like it because it's a hard race to analyse with so few of the horses having raced at the trip. And I can't agree with your second point, the race is littered with losing animals who were the best in the race - Alleged, Sea Moon, Rewilding, Camelot, most of the field that Masked Marvel beat.
 
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