Agreed - I'm still going through the Derby but he stands out. Guineas is a different proposition.
The Road to the 2012 2000 Guineas
- Thread starter Bar the Bull
- Start date
Agreed - I'm still going through the Derby but he stands out. Guineas is a different proposition.
Aragorn
New Approach (Dewhurst, g/s - strong pace)
shaken up 4f out, ridden from over 2f out, led inside final furlong, ran on under pressure
Camelot (RP Trophy, g/f - steady pace)
switched right and smooth headway over 1f out, quickened to lead last 150yds, smoothly went clear, very impressive
I'll leave you to decide which showed the most speed.
New Approach (Dewhurst, g/s - strong pace)
shaken up 4f out, ridden from over 2f out, led inside final furlong, ran on under pressure
Camelot (RP Trophy, g/f - steady pace)
switched right and smooth headway over 1f out, quickened to lead last 150yds, smoothly went clear, very impressive
I'll leave you to decide which showed the most speed.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
NA was under pressure because his opponents were top notchers. He won the Futurity easily enough on his third start against the same standard roughly that Camelot had to face at Doncaster.
The one that ran the quickest time....... Are you really going to use in running comments to back up your argument? If you can prove to me that Camelot is capable of running the final 3f's of a mile in a faster time than New approach off a quick pace i'll agree otherwise it's just opinion which frankly proves nothing.
New Approach had Ravens Pass 3 lengths back and Rio De La Plata a further 2 1/2 away. Both Group 1 winning milers who couldn't live with him. Slow horses don't win the Dewhurst. I'll bet you any money nothing from the RP trophy gets anywhere near that level of form.
Exactly....
The in-running comments that you disparage show New Approach was shaken up 4 out and ridden from 2 out, never comfortable throughout, and any stronger pace that Camelot meets than he did in the RP can only be a bonus.
Alos, both Rio De La Plata and Ravens Pass were nothing horses at that stage of their careers, yet Camelot is being dissed for beating horses that have hardly run since. Who's to say there weren't future gp1 winners behind him also?
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Yes but is Camelot going to quicken in the same way off a strong pace?
Like I said I haven't got any data in front of me now but i'm pretty sure they ran a very fast time in that Dewhurst and to assume that Camelot is going to quicken the same way off a stronger pace is a massive leap of faith as I can't see any objective argument which says he will.
Like I said I haven't got any data in front of me now but i'm pretty sure they ran a very fast time in that Dewhurst and to assume that Camelot is going to quicken the same way off a stronger pace is a massive leap of faith as I can't see any objective argument which says he will.
Harbinger
At the Start
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
- Messages
- 11,282
Eh?
Something else I was going to chuck in to this discussion:
Did anyone else know that based on times the Rowley Mile is the 5th fastest mile course in the country? Surprised me a bit - I know that they obviously have a much higher clas of animal running over that distance at Newmarket compared to most tracks but I wondered what other people made of that?
Did anyone else know that based on times the Rowley Mile is the 5th fastest mile course in the country? Surprised me a bit - I know that they obviously have a much higher clas of animal running over that distance at Newmarket compared to most tracks but I wondered what other people made of that?
Colin Phillips
At the Start
If you confine it to just Grade 1 tracks where does it come then?
That's worth opposing him for!!! Better than your offer on Power.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
How many courses have straight miles?
M
Marble
Guest
I think there's enough evidence to say that Camelot appears to have the class to go the gallop they'll likely go tomorrow and quicken off it. He looks like a consistent, durably fast animal as opposed to a freak speed horse like Frankel (which is why he'll be a derby horse in June) or horses that will be running in July Cups later in the year as a few of these will.
Where exactly he'll be during the race is hard to determine, my guess is his possy will be roughly 6th or 7th, and he'll cruise past a couple of horses every couple of furlongs That's what I'd instruct young Joseph to do anyway.
We don't really know after only two runs precisely what he likes to do during race in terms of race position, and in a way this race will tell us that, but how do Camelots opponents envsage the race panning out for their fancies?
More importantly, what is versatile enough to go through the hoops required, sit close enough off the leaders to pounce, but have the pace to be cruising whilst doing it at the same time? I don't think we'll see a Frankel performance, and you'll need a horse with tactical pace which again Camelot looks to have.
Bar Camelot, all I see is horses with a bit of zip and toe and not much else. Their form is hard to decipher and that generally tells me it could be ungenuine, or not worth parting money with to be more specific. Camelot on the other hand has done nothing wrong and beaten what he was asked to beat. Imo Most Improved and Akeed Mofeed were very interesting contenders and havn't made it. Camelot to win over four lengths for me.
But good luck with them fancy prices on that French yoke Aragorn
Where exactly he'll be during the race is hard to determine, my guess is his possy will be roughly 6th or 7th, and he'll cruise past a couple of horses every couple of furlongs That's what I'd instruct young Joseph to do anyway.
We don't really know after only two runs precisely what he likes to do during race in terms of race position, and in a way this race will tell us that, but how do Camelots opponents envsage the race panning out for their fancies?
More importantly, what is versatile enough to go through the hoops required, sit close enough off the leaders to pounce, but have the pace to be cruising whilst doing it at the same time? I don't think we'll see a Frankel performance, and you'll need a horse with tactical pace which again Camelot looks to have.
Bar Camelot, all I see is horses with a bit of zip and toe and not much else. Their form is hard to decipher and that generally tells me it could be ungenuine, or not worth parting money with to be more specific. Camelot on the other hand has done nothing wrong and beaten what he was asked to beat. Imo Most Improved and Akeed Mofeed were very interesting contenders and havn't made it. Camelot to win over four lengths for me.
But good luck with them fancy prices on that French yoke Aragorn
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Why is this surprising the best horses run there. To me not being higher than fifth actually shows it's quite slow. It's obviously galloping and stamina sapping, but horses are asked to run to their absolute extent (two of the five classics are run there at that trip after all).
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No others have straight 10 furlongs, which is perhaps the most compelling reason for the Champion Stakes to have stayed there.
Back to Good to Soft from Soft. Far side (i.e. the low draw) firmer than stand side. This should make a big difference: http://maps.turftrax.co.uk/latestgoingreport.asp?course=newmarket
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I didn't say it was surprising the best horses ran there. That doesn't surprise me at all funnily enough!! I meant I was surprised the supposedly stiff Rowley mile was the fifth fastest mile in the country.
No idea on the straight mile question or G1 question - Mellish quoted this stat the other day on a preview.
Edit: reading your post again I'm not sure I'm interpreting you correctly? Should there be some punctuation in there?!
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M
Marble
Guest
Just to add to my last post: Yes he's been held up in his two wins so far but those were educational races and in a race like the Guineas I think he might be a lot closer to the pace.
This is significant guys. It's not on the newswires yet.