The UK Political Landscape

[an capall]

We here in the U.K did get the vaccines a lot earlier than the Europeans and the bureaucracy they went through implementing a vaccine programme was embarrasing.

Genuine question and an admitted generalisation. Why (increasingly) do UK citizens and media, post Brexit, mesure their success by pointing out a lesser performance by EU?There is no doubt that a fine British civil servent in the NHS had the foresight to launch a Purchase Order on pharma companies while VD Leyden was unesscessarily naval gazing for 3 months. Kudos. But why does this matter so much?

 

[Marb]

For me personally it made the E.U look stuck under a false protocol, as if I remember rightly their regulator took a lot longer to give the go ahead to the vaccines. Forgive me Al I am not an expert on it, I guess it was just one thing a brexiteer could say worked in our favour since we left.

For me personally again there are other phillosophical issues where I seem to disagree with the way the E.U is going.

Last night I heard on the radio about a new memorandum or statement from the E.U saying that people shouldn't wish people merry christmas anymore and instead use the term happy holidays etc.

Again its a small issue I guess but to start regulating what we can call christmas seems a bit silly.

I find myself agreeing with the pope's recent remarks about the overuse of cancel culture...

If the E.U was to come out next week and castigate J.K Rowling for her views on feminsism and transgender rights then I would also happen to disagree with them on that too.

Gosh I am sounding like a brexiteer..I voted remain ffs!

 

[Desert Orchid]

Last night I heard on the radio about a new memorandum or statement from the E.U saying that people shouldn't wish people merry christmas anymore and instead use the term happy holidays etc.

That sounds the kind of thing much more likely to come from a Scandinavian or Dutch person than other Europeans, in my experience. Too many European countries are predominantly Christian for it to be taken seriously.

I find it impossible to imagine the French wishing each other 'Joyeuses vacances' or the Spanish 'Felices vacaciones'. I think they would laugh at any such proposal, as would the Italians and many other countries.

Again its a small issue I guess but to start regulating what we can call christmas seems a bit silly.

It's less likely to be an attempt to regulate what we call Christmas than an agenda-driven push for secularism, something much more likely to happen in the UK, I reckon.

As for the current incumbent cvnt at No 10, I've noticed lately the headlines in his supportive media are increasingly anti-Johnson but beneath that they still support him.

Today's Daily Mail headline: Is the party over for PM?

Sub-heading: Boris must apologise and show humility - only then can he survive.

Note the use of the first name and implied wish for him to remain as PM.

 

[Grasshopper]

A neutral or objective person could argue both pro's and con's since leaving though.

Yes we have had food shortages due to supply problems but that's the case throughout europe and some parts of the wider world.

People were quick to jump in and blame it on the lack of european drivers until it became clear the industry overall was starting to decline because of wage depression...

We here in the U.K did get the vaccines a lot earlier than the Europeans and the bureaucracy they went through implementing a vaccine programme was embarrasing.

I voted remain but I think we need to get on with it now. The future of the world is so uncertain, and I still feel we haven't seen who has been proved right or wrong yet in terms if Brexit.

Yes I am sure more angry vindictive people voted leave than remain but thats a fact of life there are angry and disgruntled people everywhere and they were given a good bone to chew on once the referendum was announced.

I can understand why pro european scots are angry.

It will be interesting to see how a future Starmer lead government deals with Sturgoen and co...will she get another indy ref?

Ultimately brexit was always something many die hard conservatives always wanted. Once Cameron got in back in 2015 with a narrow majority the chances/odds of brexit happening got considerably shorter.

We have only seen the thinnest-possible end of the wedge re food shortages, as full customs controls on Imports only triggered at the start of this year, rather than the beginning of 2021. UK companies exporting will similarly be impacted. It has nothing whatsoever to do with wage depression amongst hauliers.

Please list all of the things in the 'Pros' column. Early acquisition of the vaccine I'll give you, though given we're the first European country to pass 150,000 deaths, it's somewhat of a Pyhrric victory. Also, by August 2021 six European states had higher vaccination rates than the UK, so getting it earlier than EU countries seems a bit like going 1-0 up inside the first 5 minutes of a 90-minute match.

That aside, please name the rest of these Pros for leaving you mention. I, for one, am fascinated to know what they are.

 

[Grasshopper]

Genuine question and an admitted generalisation. Why (increasingly) do UK citizens and media, post Brexit, mesure their success by pointing out a lesser performance by EU?There is no doubt that a fine British civil servent in the NHS had the foresight to launch a Purchase Order on pharma companies while VD Leyden was unesscessarily naval gazing for 3 months. Kudos. But why does this matter so much?

Hubris, emotional immaturity and minuscule intellect, is the answer to your question, Colm.

 

[Grasshopper]

For me personally it made the E.U look stuck under a false protocol, as if I remember rightly their regulator took a lot longer to give the go ahead to the vaccines. Forgive me Al I am not an expert on it, I guess it was just one thing a brexiteer could say worked in our favour since we left.

For me personally again there are other phillosophical issues where I seem to disagree with the way the E.U is going.

Last night I heard on the radio about a new memorandum or statement from the E.U saying that people shouldn't wish people merry christmas anymore and instead use the term happy holidays etc.

Again its a small issue I guess but to start regulating what we can call christmas seems a bit silly.

I find myself agreeing with the pope's recent remarks about the overuse of cancel culture...

If the E.U was to come out next week and castigate J.K Rowling for her views on feminsism and transgender rights then I would also happen to disagree with them on that too.

Gosh I am sounding like a brexiteer..I voted remain ffs!

This is the kind of erroneous and blatantly-misleading horse-sh*it that would routinely be publicised by Brexit supporting newspapers over the years.

For the record, it is possible to disagree with some elements of EU policy (note that the EU can't actually 'police' or 'legislate' against anyone saying 'Merry Christmas'), and still support it for the much greater good that it manifestly provides ion any number of areas. It is the pea-brained obsession in the UK with irrelevant trivia like this bullshit radio-story that led us to Brexit in the first place.

 

[Marb]

That aside, please name the rest of these Pros for leaving you mention. I, for one, am fascinated to know what they are.

I think the world has been taken aback by Covid. If you asked the general public whats affected their lives the most the past two years the answer is not leaving the E.U, the answer is Covid.

A worldwide pandemic which surely has damaged the world economy, but for how long and how deeply might be the interesting question.

What about the perceived negatives or the cons so to speak? Have the big european banks/bankers all moved out of the city of London?

People have rolled out similiar arguments when someone like Corbyn propsed to tax the super rich more - that these super rich people will leave the country.

But the city of London hasn't gone missing has it? Has the U.K economy crashed? Not really...hence maybe the biggest pro at the moment is the lack of apparant cons. Maybe we just have got extremely lucky...

Its been a monumentally frustrating and drawn out process no doubt, and I do feel guilty to the trouble its caused in Ireland and for you people in Scotland who wanted to stay in the E.U.

I just think we need to get on it with now, Grassy.

If the U.K really does implode in a few years then remainers as adamant as you will rightfully tell us we should have remained in the E.U. Thats fair enough.

 

[Grasshopper]

If you think the UK economy hasn't crashed, then you haven't been paying attention. We will be paying for Covid-related problems for many years to come - we just haven't had the invoice yet.

The true impact of Brexit is similarly in the post. Insofar as the Financial Services industry is concerned, Capital flight in the multi-billions has already happened, and whilst the scale of FS job losses isn't yet as bad as predicted, over 7,000 jobs have been lost. All of this impacts tax receipts into the Exchequer, something which will start to bite further as UK becomes an increasingly less attractive place in which to invest. And if the Exchequer decides to push interest-rates up to increase investment attractiveness, it will impact the man on the street through higher costs (mortgage interest rates, inflation etc). The disaster has yet to properly unfold.

No matter. I didn't ask for a list of things which "Aren't quite as fu*cked as predicted yet" - I asked for a list of Pros. Get back to me when you have them.

 

[Grey]

Last night I heard on the radio about a new memorandum or statement from the E.U saying that people shouldn't wish people merry christmas anymore and instead use the term happy holidays etc.

Again its a small issue I guess but to start regulating what we can call christmas seems a bit silly.

This is the kind of malicious brexiteer nonsense that Boris himself used to delight in when he was a Brussels correspondent for the Telegraph (one of the papers he didn't get fired from for making stuff up).

It is true that in Brussels and many other French-speaking places the normal phrase used to wish each other a happy Christmas in shops and workplaces is "Bonne Fête", to apply to the whole period covering Christmas and New Year. In the days after Christmas, the phrase "Bonne Année" is used to wish people a happy new year. But this is merely common usage, not the result of legislation.

Ironically enough, Oliver Cromwell, who many brexiteers would claim as their spiritual father, was responsible for banning Christmas festivities when he was in power.

 

[Marb]

Apologies if anyone is offended at the way I reported on this. If I exaggerated it wasn't intentional.

Having read further it seems the guidance given was for internal purposes and inclusion for E.U staff.

I guess it's a trivial matter afterall..

 

[barjon]

Hey, Marb.People don’t take offence at such things on here (one of the things that sets th apart) even when the language gets a bit fruity

 

[an capall]

Marb, I fully respect your point of view and I'm sure you validly hold it, even I have trouble understanding it.

I would urge you though, obviously as a smart and independent thinker, to please second source any of those 'protocol' assertions you may hear. They are generally Faragisms, and completley made up. Note: The Daily Express is not a second source.

Last question, for you (a remainer) to put to any Brexiteer friend you may have: Which is more important, that the EU diminsihes or that Britain succeeds?

 

[Marb]

Marb, I fully respect your point of view and I'm sure you validly hold it, even I have trouble understanding it.

I would urge you though, obviously as a smart and independent thinker, to please second source any of those 'protocol' assertions you may hear. They are generally Faragisms, and completley made up. Note: The Daily Express is not a second source.

Last question, for you (a remainer) to put to any Brexiteer friend you may have: Which is more important, that the EU diminsihes or that Britain succeeds?

I don't wish the failure of the E.U.

I don't know anyone who would wish such a thing, and I am sure you, Grasshopper and the rest don't wish the U.K to fail either?

Re-protocol.. yes maybe the wrong word used there..although protocol does relate to procedure and the E.U's procedure was seemingly why it took them so long to get the vaccines to their people...anyhow so lets put it this way....they dithered to a point where the E.U was widely seen as behind the curve and lacking initiative, in some cases months behind the U.K and even the U.S.

When you are being out manevoured in an international crisis by Matt Hancock you are not doing something that good...

I am sure this makes sense.

 

[Grey]

It is true that the European Commission’s efforts to obtain vaccines for its citizens were too slow and bureaucratic at first. It was the first time the Commission had ever been handed such a task. And then, instead of using staff from its foreign aid agency, who have long experience of locating food and medical supplies in emergencies of all kinds around the world, the Commission itself took on the job. But the Commission’s normal role is drafting legislation and standards based on consensus arrived at through lengthy discussion, and not the kind of snap decision making needed in a crisis. Hopeful they won’t be so painfully rigid if called on to do a similar task in future.

But don’t forget the speedier UK response has come at a price, because cutting corners has meant that close friends of government ministers have been able to make millions out of contracts handed to them because of their privileged access.

 

[barjon]

Grassy asked about the pros of leaving th EU. Once you get past the somewhat tub thumping “we’ve got our sovereignty back” they are somewhat thin on the ground. Even so far as sovereignty is concerned if we want to trade into the EU then we have to obey their rules however pettyfogging they may seem. We don’t have to obey them here, of course, but that just seems to give advantages to the EU selling into us whilst we are still constrained when selling into them.

Beyond that, trade deals are primarily about goods as their name suggests. We don’t actually manufacture a great deal nowadays and our economy is heavily service based. Once again it is not clear to me where the balance of advantage lies in such trade deals. We do manufacture/assemble things for a lot of foreign based manufactures, of course, and it may be that they can gain advantage from having their product of UK origin.

I am not a pessimist by nature, but I do recall that we were heading downhill in the economic league table before we joined the EU in its earlier guise. We did thrive comparatively as a member state and I do find it difficult to see why we won’t revert to where we were when last alone. As Marb says, we’ve just got to get on with it now. Success depends a sound long term strategy and strong leadership to deliver it. Hands up anyone who thinks we’ve got that.

 

[an capall]

I noticed a huge headline in the Express earlier in the week highlighting that the soaring success of Brexit has enabled UK increase trade figures by a whooping 822%. Then I read a little more and it turns out that trading in courgettes/other veg with Morrocco has gone from (approx) £150K per annum to £1.3M. Still, I badly want UK to thrive, (my Grand and Great Grandads were from Warwickshire and both career British army men, it's in my genes) and was happy for the small success. Then I read a little more. It turns out that 95% of the new trade is growth in Moroccon exports.

You badly, badly, need to deconstruct any information that comes from either side of the debate. Like stuff the Pope is alleged to have said. Then make up your mind.

 

[Grasshopper]

Grassy asked about the pros of leaving th EU. Once you get past the somewhat tub thumping “we’ve got our sovereignty back” they are somewhat thin on the ground. Even so far as sovereignty is concerned if we want to trade into the EU then we have to obey their rules however pettyfogging they may seem. We don’t have to obey them here, of course, but that just seems to give advantages to the EU selling into us whilst we are still constrained when selling into them.

Beyond that, trade deals are primarily about goods as their name suggests. We don’t actually manufacture a great deal nowadays and our economy is heavily service based. Once again it is not clear to me where the balance of advantage lies in such trade deals. We do manufacture/assemble things for a lot of foreign based manufactures, of course, and it may be that they can gain advantage from having their product of UK origin.

I am not a pessimist by nature, but I do recall that we were heading downhill in the economic league table before we joined the EU in its earlier guise. We did thrive comparatively as a member state and I do find it difficult to see why we won’t revert to where we were when last alone. As Marb says, we’ve just got to get on with it now. Success depends a sound long term strategy and strong leadership to deliver it. Hands up anyone who thinks we’ve got that.

Vast majority of our remaining manufacturing capability is as part of JIT chains....all of which will be adversely impacted by being outside the Single Market/Customs Union........and that's before we consider any standards divergence. It is a pipe-dream to think that manufacturing output will increase, by moving from the inside to the outside of the biggest trading bloc on the planet.

Services were completely ignored in the deal with the EU, which covered Goods only. Again, time will tell what impact Brexit has on Services, but as I said we've already seen capital flight, and its impact is unlikely to be positive or even neutral.

And as for sovereignty, what does that even mean? So far, it seems to equate to the UK Government having the ability to tip sh*it into our rivers, and fleece the country at will; unfettered by any wider set of anti-corruption rules we were once perhaps subject to.

I am not prepared to "get on with it", knowing that no matter how hard we try, we will be left with a vastly inferior model than the one stripped from us by a cabal of right-wing tossers, as a pre-text to plundering a nation. I will always be an advocate for the European Union, and will always agitate to be a part of it. And if the best chance I have of securing that objective is via an independent Scotland, then so be it. Brexit has killed stone-dead anything that might have been good or noble about the UK (not exactly the world's longest book anyway), and I want no part of this English Nationalist project.

 

[reet hard]

An 'Indepent' Scotland would have no guarantee of EU membership, no worthwhile financial services to shore up their economy, Oil and gas revenue pencilled in redundant, and Claymores & bare buttocks won't suffice for defence of the realm, either.
Careful you don't get what you wish for.

 

[Desert Orchid]

And as for sovereignty, what does that even mean? So far, it seems to equate to the UK Government having the ability to tip sh*it into our rivers, and fleece the country at will; unfettered by any wider set of anti-corruption rules we were once perhaps subject to.

I am not prepared to "get on with it", knowing that no matter how hard we try, we will be left with a vastly inferior model than the one stripped from us by a cabal of right-wing tossers, as a pre-text to plundering a nation. I will always be an advocate for the European Union, and will always agitate to be a part of it. And if the best chance I have of securing that objective is via an independent Scotland, then so be it. Brexit has killed stone-dead anything that might have been good or noble about the UK (not exactly the world's longest book anyway), and I want no part of this English Nationalist project.

100%

 

[Grasshopper]

I’m well aware of the accession process, reet, and the fact membership isn’t guaranteed - but you knew that anyway.

As for the rest of it, I’d take my chances.

Oil and Gas will need to be phased-out, but that can be offset to an extent by Scotland’s evolving (and valuable) renewables capability. As far as Financial Services are concerned, we have fully-integrated infrastructure, and it would be no surprise to see it flourish. Certainly, there is a chance English banks might consider re-headquartering to take advantage of Scotland’s position, should we rejoin the EU.

As for the rest of it, the references to claymores rather make my point for me, regarding the emergence (and acceptance) of English Nationalism into the mainstream down south…….though quite what the English have to crow about is lost on me, I confess.

I am under no illusions about the difficulties of independence. These have essentially not changed since the 2014 referendum. But what has changed is our position within the EU, which has dissolved on the back of English votes…plus the seeming inevitability of endless Tory Governments being voted in by the same English votes - no matter how corrupt or incompetent they might be.

If your inference is that Scotland can’t do anything on its own without England looking after it, then I thoroughly dispute the assertion, because England (within the construct of the UK) manifestly hasn’t looked after Scottish interests, and now overtly sees it as an irritating junior-partner in an uneven alliance.

The UK experiment has failed. It’s now time to consign it to the history books, and for Scotland to go it alone - and deal with whatever is thrown at it.

 

[an capall]

Careful you don't get what you wish for.

Indeed.

 

[barjon]

Mmm, by the same token that I think the EU is stronger than the sum of its individual parts so, too, do I think the UK is stronger than the sum of its individual parts.

 

[an capall]

I agree in principle Barjon, but what if, say Germany, stopped giving a sh!t about Latvia and actively disadvantaged their position in the Union. What would the Latvians do and would it be logical? Union and collaboration works best when there is parity of esteem.

 

[barjon]

Absolutely, an, as you conclude it cuts both ways.

 

[reet hard]

Got my wish when we voted 'out', but I've no wish to see the UK divided.