Frankel
Senior Jockey
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- Jan 12, 2014
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How did he win the Champion?
The Well Worn Road To The Champion Hurdle (2016)
- Thread starter Diamond Geezer
- Start date
How did he win the Champion?
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Dunno about that, EC1.
For me, taking an objective view of a race after-the-fact is probably just as important as the view you take before the race. Even moreso, perhaps, because it means you're not "carrying baggage" when you next review a race. This is a fundamental if you are in any way a serious form student, I reckon. We'll bawl like the banshees to defend the one we've backed going into a race, but in my experience, there is plenty of sober-reflection on these pages once that race is over, and there are many more people prepared to put their hands-up, rather than try to defend something which is clearly not-on, based on the evidence.
The only exception I make is where Hurricane Fly is concerned, and I'm sure we can all agree that Aughex is talking UTTER SH*ITE, when it comes to his assessment of the great horse. :lol:
Take it easy, Aughex - I'm only pulling your leg.
For me, taking an objective view of a race after-the-fact is probably just as important as the view you take before the race. Even moreso, perhaps, because it means you're not "carrying baggage" when you next review a race. This is a fundamental if you are in any way a serious form student, I reckon. We'll bawl like the banshees to defend the one we've backed going into a race, but in my experience, there is plenty of sober-reflection on these pages once that race is over, and there are many more people prepared to put their hands-up, rather than try to defend something which is clearly not-on, based on the evidence.
The only exception I make is where Hurricane Fly is concerned, and I'm sure we can all agree that Aughex is talking UTTER SH*ITE, when it comes to his assessment of the great horse. :lol:
Take it easy, Aughex - I'm only pulling your leg.
EC1
On a break
off early steady fractions,,up to hurdle 3..one of the slowest 2 mile championship races.novice or CH this century...thats only my calcs though
EC1
On a break
Dunno about that, EC1.
For me, taking an objective view of a race after-the-fact is probably just as important as the view you take before the race. Even moreso, perhaps, because it means you're not "carrying baggage" when you next review a race. This is a fundamental if you are in any way a serious form student, I reckon. We'll bawl like the banshees to defend the one we've backed going into a race, but in my experience, there is plenty of sober-reflection on these pages once that race is over, and there are many more people prepared to put their hands-up, rather than try to defend something which is clearly not-on, based on the evidence.
The only exception I make is where Hurricane Fly is concerned, and I'm sure we can all agree that Aughex is talking UTTER SH*ITE, when it comes to his assessment of the great horse. :lol:
Take it easy, Aughex - I'm only pulling your leg.
yes...i make a visual guess about races mesen..we all do i suppose..but like many commetators also do..i misjudge by eye pace i must admit..unless something is extreme
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EC1
On a break
even i saw that watching live:lol:..it was an easy spot wasn't it?
Off the 7th fastest time CH in history due to a pace injection from Jezki 3rd hurdle from home who forced Faugheen to show his full gears. Sunday we saw what should've happened in the middle of the race, the pace only picked up 2 from home which didn't allow Faugheen to go through his full gears, hanging right for whatever reason also didn't help, I don't see any comparison of Sunday's race with the CH.
Sunday was similar to his Ascot last season over 2m4f where he went slow against much inferior competition(than NC and WB) and could only finish 5 lengths ahead of them with all the outsiders still in contention on the turn-in. Had he faced at Ascot a good opponent I'd say he would've had a different path by now. Mullins also said he weighs about the same as he did that day at Ascot so in very poor shape against small flat type horses who have finishing speed, downgrade what he's done in the CH all you want based on Sunday run but I personally won't.
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EC1
On a break
it was the 7th fastest overall due to running on faster ground than norm..would have been even faster overall had they not dawdled to the 3rd hurdle.
fast times are relative to the going as well as pace.
the point Frankel is making is that Faugheen breezed the CH off one of the slowest earlys recorded..so should have been able to so on sunday under the pace you describe as slow,,,,he isn't running down the CH.
https://www.timeform.com/racing/Articles/Sectional_Debrief_Cheltenham_Festival_2015,_day_one
fast times are relative to the going as well as pace.
the point Frankel is making is that Faugheen breezed the CH off one of the slowest earlys recorded..so should have been able to so on sunday under the pace you describe as slow,,,,he isn't running down the CH.
https://www.timeform.com/racing/Articles/Sectional_Debrief_Cheltenham_Festival_2015,_day_one
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Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
- Joined
- May 2, 2003
- Messages
- 13,884
Ruby talking about Faugheen on the season preview on Racing UK says he didn't have the zest or the pick up and sprint on Sunday that he did in that CH where the horse bunny hopped the second last as he thought Faugheen was going to jump long but the horse took an extra step, however Faugheen picked up and sprinted from the bend to win the CH. Doesn't have an answer to the defeat on Sunday other than Nichols Canyon may have improved more than they realised.
For what it's worth the panel still think Faugheen is the one to beat in the CH with the terrain of Cheltenham, the expected better ground and the time of year cited as the reasons. Peace And Co the main danger.
For what it's worth the panel still think Faugheen is the one to beat in the CH with the terrain of Cheltenham, the expected better ground and the time of year cited as the reasons. Peace And Co the main danger.
EC1
On a break
its a mystery DG isn't it?...we will only fathom in future races possibly
I've had a think about this and watched a few of his races back. If nothing comes to light maybe he's one of those horses that needs to be able to stride on and put the hammer down between the second and third last to get the others at it to be seen at his best. Ruby held on to him on Sunday and expected to coast past in the final furlong. His strength is his high cruising speed coupled with his stamina to get others of the bridle and out of their comfort zone leaving them with nothing for the finish. It may simply have been the change of tactics that beat him.
If they revert back to previous tactics I reckon it could leave him vulnerable to Peace and Co and maybe even My Tent or Yours if he's back to his best. Both tend to take a strong hold and have high cruising speeds and won't be as easy to burn off as last seasons lot were. They'll definitely make best use of Faugheen for the rest of the season though you would think.
If they revert back to previous tactics I reckon it could leave him vulnerable to Peace and Co and maybe even My Tent or Yours if he's back to his best. Both tend to take a strong hold and have high cruising speeds and won't be as easy to burn off as last seasons lot were. They'll definitely make best use of Faugheen for the rest of the season though you would think.
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I agree Maruco, best horses in their division tend to weaken their opponents from long way out but they do it without being asked because they don't stay forever like Faugheen. Sprinter wanted out on Sunday and Nico left him to go along, if he'd been a stayer he wouldn't wanted to go faster mid-race. Frankel was always(bar SJP and Guineas) sent home from 3 out, he burned them before they had the chance to sprint pass him. But because Faugheen stays, he just canters along wherever you put him, if its a strong run race like last year on boxing day, he goes along, the others are burn, he continues. If its a slow run race he still canters along and at the same time he has a tremendous turn of foot but if he's up against speedsters and they still have gas at the end they will take much longer to pass. It was half a len to get by NC and the size of both horses speaks volume, one is a chaser the other a small flat horse, put soft ground in the mix and its a lot harder to make up ground.
i missed Ruby thoughts on Faugheen on RUK but I'm curious if he gave any reasons for the hanging and the physical condition relative to Ascot last year as Mullins said he's about the same when asked few weeks ago.
i missed Ruby thoughts on Faugheen on RUK but I'm curious if he gave any reasons for the hanging and the physical condition relative to Ascot last year as Mullins said he's about the same when asked few weeks ago.
EC1
On a break
from sporting life
Faugheen tasted defeat for the first time when upstaged by stablemate Nichols Canyon on his return to action in the Grade One StanJames.com Morgiana Hurdle at Punchestown.
Sky Bet
All appeared to be going to plan for last season's Champion Hurdle hero as he jumped and travelled beautifully in the early exchanges, but Ruby Walsh was sending out distress signals on the Willie Mullins-trained 1/6 favourite as they swung for home.
Nichols Canyon was still marching on out in front for David Mullins and despite Faugheen throwing down a strong challenge in the closing stages, the 7/1 winner responded really well for pressure and had a half a length in hand as they hit they hit the line.
Mullins also saddled the third with Wicklow Brave close behind the first pair.
The shocked trainer said: "That worked out completely different from the way they worked on Tuesday. Faugheen left Nichols for dead - maybe he left his race behind? I don't know.
"Nichols won four Grade Ones last year and he's no back number by any means. He looks like a Champion Hurdle horse now, rather than the stayers.
Check out the updated prices for the Cheltenham Festival now!
"Faugheen was a little disappointing. Ruby said he hung, but horses hang when they get tired. Maybe he just met a good horse.
"They went a good gallop and Nichols did it the hard way out in front, he jumped fantastic. Maybe he has improved more. Until he tells me something wasn't right, I'm not making any excuses for Faugheen.
"We'll see how they come out of the race and they'll be entered in all those races that Champion Hurdle horses should be in.
"They'll probably have to take on each other, but if we can keep them apart we will."
He went on: "Nichols Canyon was under the radar last year. He was a second string, but did win four Grade Ones.
"We used the wrong tactics with him at Cheltenham and that took the gloss off him a bit. It was our fault. He put in a huge performance today.
"The other horse (Wicklow Brave) ran very well. We rode him to come home, but Patrick (Mullins) said we should have made more use of him.
"I'll talk to the owner and see if we keep him in training. We were going to put him away, but ran him in this race as he was so well.
"We'll probably put him away now as he was as fit as he could be today and couldn't beat them first time out."
Faugheen's rider Walsh was putting a brave face on the disappointment of defeat.
He said: "He just seemed to hang, from the first down the back he was hanging right all the way, it's not something he's done before.
"It's disappointing, he didn't pick up like he can, but that's horse racing isn't it? We always knew Nichols Canyon was a good horse. It's just disappointing."
Along with most punters, bookmakers were left scratching their heads at the result. Sky Bet cut Nichols Canyon from 16/1 to 6/1 for the Champion Hurdle with Faugheen still heading the market at 6/4.
Spokesman Michael Shinners said: "It's hard to know what to make of that race, and it sounds like Willie Mullins isn't sure either. But we're not going to get carried away and push out Faugheen in the betting now, even though his unbeaten record has gone."
Faugheen tasted defeat for the first time when upstaged by stablemate Nichols Canyon on his return to action in the Grade One StanJames.com Morgiana Hurdle at Punchestown.
Sky Bet
All appeared to be going to plan for last season's Champion Hurdle hero as he jumped and travelled beautifully in the early exchanges, but Ruby Walsh was sending out distress signals on the Willie Mullins-trained 1/6 favourite as they swung for home.
Nichols Canyon was still marching on out in front for David Mullins and despite Faugheen throwing down a strong challenge in the closing stages, the 7/1 winner responded really well for pressure and had a half a length in hand as they hit they hit the line.
Mullins also saddled the third with Wicklow Brave close behind the first pair.
The shocked trainer said: "That worked out completely different from the way they worked on Tuesday. Faugheen left Nichols for dead - maybe he left his race behind? I don't know.
"Nichols won four Grade Ones last year and he's no back number by any means. He looks like a Champion Hurdle horse now, rather than the stayers.
Check out the updated prices for the Cheltenham Festival now!
"Faugheen was a little disappointing. Ruby said he hung, but horses hang when they get tired. Maybe he just met a good horse.
"They went a good gallop and Nichols did it the hard way out in front, he jumped fantastic. Maybe he has improved more. Until he tells me something wasn't right, I'm not making any excuses for Faugheen.
"We'll see how they come out of the race and they'll be entered in all those races that Champion Hurdle horses should be in.
"They'll probably have to take on each other, but if we can keep them apart we will."
He went on: "Nichols Canyon was under the radar last year. He was a second string, but did win four Grade Ones.
"We used the wrong tactics with him at Cheltenham and that took the gloss off him a bit. It was our fault. He put in a huge performance today.
"The other horse (Wicklow Brave) ran very well. We rode him to come home, but Patrick (Mullins) said we should have made more use of him.
"I'll talk to the owner and see if we keep him in training. We were going to put him away, but ran him in this race as he was so well.
"We'll probably put him away now as he was as fit as he could be today and couldn't beat them first time out."
Faugheen's rider Walsh was putting a brave face on the disappointment of defeat.
He said: "He just seemed to hang, from the first down the back he was hanging right all the way, it's not something he's done before.
"It's disappointing, he didn't pick up like he can, but that's horse racing isn't it? We always knew Nichols Canyon was a good horse. It's just disappointing."
Along with most punters, bookmakers were left scratching their heads at the result. Sky Bet cut Nichols Canyon from 16/1 to 6/1 for the Champion Hurdle with Faugheen still heading the market at 6/4.
Spokesman Michael Shinners said: "It's hard to know what to make of that race, and it sounds like Willie Mullins isn't sure either. But we're not going to get carried away and push out Faugheen in the betting now, even though his unbeaten record has gone."
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Seems crazy to me that after this defeat people are bringing up the time of Faugheen's CH which has no bearing on this result whatsoever
Not unless you believe that there was a superior animal in the Champion Hurdle who would have reversed the form had the race been run in an overall faster time. One that would have stopped Faugheen quickening at a crucial time in the race.
IMO had something like the New One gone half a stride faster early doors would have made no difference
Look back to he Neptune when, in the fastest time of the day, he quickened of a decent pace set by Cole Harden and left them a for dead at the 2nd last.
Having backed Peace and Co I wish...this defeat means bog all......Even the best trainers (PN Kauto Star) send their champions out undercooked sometimes and get it wrong.
Anyone think WPM is the least but worried...the finishing order made no difference to his pocket and it got rid of any cobwebs.
The only question that remains is come March as far as I can see is can Peace and Co produce a better turn of foot than Faugheen after the last...it should be a cracker
Not unless you believe that there was a superior animal in the Champion Hurdle who would have reversed the form had the race been run in an overall faster time. One that would have stopped Faugheen quickening at a crucial time in the race.
IMO had something like the New One gone half a stride faster early doors would have made no difference
Look back to he Neptune when, in the fastest time of the day, he quickened of a decent pace set by Cole Harden and left them a for dead at the 2nd last.
Having backed Peace and Co I wish...this defeat means bog all......Even the best trainers (PN Kauto Star) send their champions out undercooked sometimes and get it wrong.
Anyone think WPM is the least but worried...the finishing order made no difference to his pocket and it got rid of any cobwebs.
The only question that remains is come March as far as I can see is can Peace and Co produce a better turn of foot than Faugheen after the last...it should be a cracker
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Dunno about that, EC1.
For me, taking an objective view of a race after-the-fact is probably just as important as the view you take before the race. Even moreso, perhaps, because it means you're not "carrying baggage" when you next review a race. This is a fundamental if you are in any way a serious form student, I reckon. We'll bawl like the banshees to defend the one we've backed going into a race, but in my experience, there is plenty of sober-reflection on these pages once that race is over, and there are many more people prepared to put their hands-up, rather than try to defend something which is clearly not-on, based on the evidence.
The only exception I make is where Hurricane Fly is concerned, and I'm sure we can all agree that Aughex is talking UTTER SH*ITE, when it comes to his assessment of the great horse. :lol:
Take it easy, Aughex - I'm only pulling your leg.
NO HE'S NOT HE MEANT EVERY WORD OF IT :lol:
Blog by Gordon Elliott
David Mullins got an easy enough lead on Nichols Canyon and Faugheen just failed to catch him, but whatever beats him in the Champion Hurdle will still win; he remains the horse to beat.
David Mullins got an easy enough lead on Nichols Canyon and Faugheen just failed to catch him, but whatever beats him in the Champion Hurdle will still win; he remains the horse to beat.
EC1
On a break
i prefer Mullins view..and i'll tell you why..Ruby is one of the best judges i've ever seen over the jumps re pace..ever,,he's the Cauthen of twig racing..if he thought NC wasn't going fast enough he would have took it up..and secondly after the race when they probably looked at every angle to see why Faugheen lost..the first reason would have been lack of pace..they haven't used that reason..in fact Mullins said the opposite
apart from the number 106,,which you have no clue whether that means anything or not ..in fact have stated you believe 100 is even pace no matter what..which it isn't...and have seen no other data re that distance given by TF..ie a par...to make any judgement by....you are going against the trainer ..jockey who is ace pace man...historic data handed to you in your lap..you still can't see wood from trees..then to cap it all..you pick the slowest ever Champion Hurdle for first 3 flights and state it was a test..totally opposite to what actually happened..novice race alone was 5 seconds faster to halfway should tell you something just on its own.
ignoring all the data..who knows best Ruby or Gordon Elliot?..i know which one i'd favour mesen
who we going to quote next for the pace?...Graham Cunningham..the gardner?..
if you think that a slow pace beat it...why doesn't the trainer and jockey also think that?
i respect your view on this..but feel you ignoring some obvious stuff.
whatever did happen will be forgotten if it hoses up next time..and we never going to get this time back we spending on it..so i won't post any more links or whatever
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Surely it's as simple as Sil Conti last year in the Charlie Hall. He was big and needed the race.
granger
Senior Jockey
That's my take on it
It wasn't a soft race like his introduction last year and he didn't fire as hoped
Gaz's Way De Solzen
Apprentice
I think so.
Said a couple of times since the race that Faugheen looked huge in comparison to the 1st and 3rd. Yes he is more of a chaser type, I get that, but that said, he did look big around the belly and loin area!
EC1
On a break
if it is fitness then surely Mullins would have said so..and if not fit how has he beaten NF at home a few days before?..I know its only at home..but an unfit horse even on the gallops isn't going to beat a fit one surely..in fact over a short burst of speed on the gallops it would be even more telling and NF would have beaten him there as well
surely Mullins would have said he will need the race wouldn't he?
again..just guessing obviously but i'm not convinced on the lack of fitness..then again i'm not convinced about owt to do with it tbh
i know very little about what happens on the gallops and just try and think logically about what i'm told happens there..some of you guys will know about gallops stuff..so i ask the question...is it possible to be unfit and beat a fit horse one day..then get beat by same horse a few days later and it be down to fitness?..lack of fitness surely shows when asked for short bursts quickly as well as in races..you would know even off a gallop if a horse is short no?
surely Mullins would have said he will need the race wouldn't he?
again..just guessing obviously but i'm not convinced on the lack of fitness..then again i'm not convinced about owt to do with it tbh
i know very little about what happens on the gallops and just try and think logically about what i'm told happens there..some of you guys will know about gallops stuff..so i ask the question...is it possible to be unfit and beat a fit horse one day..then get beat by same horse a few days later and it be down to fitness?..lack of fitness surely shows when asked for short bursts quickly as well as in races..you would know even off a gallop if a horse is short no?
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
To me gallop reports are completely pointless. What if Faugheen did beat NC in their gallop but had the latter had a heavier jockey onboard. We can't come to any conclusions without this sort of information - it's all guesswork, as is trying to decipher trainer comments. As a punter I just rely on watching the racing.
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EC1
On a break
yes but i'm not talking about what i know..Mullins knew what each hoss awas carrying..he said V beat NF on the gallops..there was no need to even mention it..doesn't really need deciphering...by saying it he is telling us he is puzzled by the loss..if he thought F wasn't fit..he wouldn't be puzzled would he?
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WPM did say after the race about Wicklow Brave that unlike his other pair he was fully match fit. He also said Wicklow Brave would now be put away for the winter because he wouldn't be needed for the top races after being unable to trouble F and NC even with a fitness advantage.
So neither NC nor F were thought to be fully fit, which is no surprise at this early stage of the season, but F was thought ready to beat his opposition nonetheless.
So neither NC nor F were thought to be fully fit, which is no surprise at this early stage of the season, but F was thought ready to beat his opposition nonetheless.
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EC1
On a break
cheers Grey