Tingle Creek

Arazi said:
Well Chief at his best would be a major threat to Master Minded. Unfortunately it's highly unlikely that we'll see WC at his best on the racetrack again.
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I can't see that tbh..Well Chief was quite a way behind Moscow..and we are led to believe that MM is better than Moscow..so can't see how a Well Chief..even at his best would get near him
 
Official ratings seem a bit out for me here though. I understand that the races are rated through the horses that race in them and the distances between them, but I'm not sure of how well the rating of Master Minded stacks up against those of Azertyuiop or Well Chief.

Given that Moscow was usually rated by just doing enough to beat those two - there has always been the argument that he could have found more if needed.

Would anyone on here back Master Minded giving weight to Moscow Flyer? I wouldn't.
 
I would Betsmate - we're in danger of putting Moscow into some kind of "untouchables" category that Arkle is in. Did Moscow ever beat a reigning Champion Chaser by 19 lengths - I'd likely be backing MF at 2 1/2m - his Melling Chase wins were superb but at 2m I'd most definitely be with MM even conceding weight.
 
Moscow was "ridden out" and "hard ridden". They raced each other twice and the result was the same to within half a length.
 
Irish Stamp said:
I would Betsmate - we're in danger of putting Moscow into some kind of "untouchables" category that Arkle is in. Did Moscow ever beat a reigning Champion Chaser by 19 lengths - I'd likely be backing MF at 2 1/2m - his Melling Chase wins were superb but at 2m I'd most definitely be with MM even conceding weight.
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Martin, Moscow Flyer's wins in the Melling Chase are not within a half-stone of the form he showed in his two Tingle Creeks, or his second Champion Chase.

The best that can be said about Master Minded's Festival victory is that it was a superb performance, in a race that is incredibly difficult to have much faith in from a ratings point of view.

Master Minded is a worthy heir to Moscow Flyer's crown, but any evidence suggesting he could beat mrs Harrington's horse over 2m - let alone give him weight in doing so - is extremely fragile.

Moscow Flyer's 2m form is bullet-proof, as evidenced by Azertyuiop and Well Chief both putting-up mega performances in handicaps off 176 and 178 (or thereabouts). There are zero question marks about it. The same cannot be said of Master Minded's form, albeit he is undoubtedly a superlative 2m steeplechaser, and in that ball-park (FWIW, I had him on 179 after his CC win, and I see no reason to rate him any higher or lower than that).
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Moscow was "ridden out" and "hard ridden". They raced each other twice and the result was the same to within half a length.
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watch the races Gareth...WC never looks like beating MF at any stage...the distances are irrelevant imo..

WC would not have beaten an upright, fit, MF whilst he had an hole in his arse.

but even if you just go on distances beaten..then WC ...at his very best...still has no chance with MM...as MM is better than MF isn't he? ;)
 
Grasshopper said:
Moscow Flyer's 2m form is bullet-proof, as evidenced by Azertyuiop and Well Chief both putting-up mega performances in handicaps off 176 and 178 (or thereabouts). There are zero question marks about it. The same cannot be said of Master Minded's form, albeit he is undoubtedly a superlative 2m steeplechaser, and in that ball-park (FWIW, I had him on 179 after his CC win, and I see no reason to rate him any higher or lower than that).
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VPU put up a good performance in defeat on New Years Day off top weight in a 2m handicap chase. Also think that the question marks over MM's Festival are because it was that good - people don't seem to believe the form as he looked absolutely awesome. I've no doubt he fully deserves his 186 rating, there was talk of Tidal Bay being able to beat him today - quite a bit of it and I don't think McCoy thought there was ever any danger of that happening at Sandown.

Not sure we'll see another performance from him like Cheltenham but that's only because there's very little in his league at the moment - maybe something will come out of 08/9's novice ranks but at the moment i'm sceptical.
 
"Ruby Walsh reported he had not been happy with Azertyuiop from the off and the nine-year-old was certainly not travelling with the fluency and panache of Moscow Flyer alongside him turning into the back straight. His class carried him through into what would have been a respectable third for anyone else but one of the holy trinity. There has to be a worry about just what the water jump error did to him as he did not stride away from the fence with fluency and his rider gave him plenty of time to recover, conceding more ground than he was beaten. He has had a hard race and the end-of-season race at Sandown looks his best option to regain respect after this hiccup."

RP Analysis of said 15 length beating - that and his subsequent defeat to Well Chief (and retirement) suggests something was amiss at Cheltenham.
 
Irish Stamp said:
VPU put up a good performance in defeat on New Years Day off top weight in a 2m handicap chase. Also think that the question marks over MM's Festival are because it was that good - people don't seem to believe the form as he looked absolutely awesome. I've no doubt he fully deserves his 186 rating, there was talk of Tidal Bay being able to beat him today - quite a bit of it and I don't think McCoy thought there was ever any danger of that happening at Sandown.

Not sure we'll see another performance from him like Cheltenham but that's only because there's very little in his league at the moment - maybe something will come out of 08/9's novice ranks but at the moment i'm sceptical.
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Well Chief gave Thisthatandtother a stone and 6lbs and nearly a two length beating. Thisthatandtother then went on to win the Ryanair Chase.

In handicaps...Azertyuiop gave Isio (a subsequent winner next time out) a stone and five pounds and was beaten a short head at Ascot. In his prep for the Sandown race Azertyuiop gave Seebald a stone and 4lbs and a 5 length beating. In Seebalds next race he ran Best Mate to a neck.

Voy Por Eustedes form in handicaps does not come close...
 
I believe that if two top-class fit horses race only twice, both over two miles with fences at two different courses three months apart and that both are ridden out and at the end of it the result is the same to within half a length, and general opinion is that both races represented the upper limit of their entire career performances, then the strong likelihood is that the difference between them is a fair reflection of their comparitive merits. Clear enough?
 
Gareth Flynn said:
I believe that if two top-class fit horses race only twice, both over two miles with fences at two different courses three months apart and that both are ridden out and at the end of it the result is the same to within half a length, and general opinion is that both races represented the upper limit of their entire career performances, then the strong likelihood is that the difference between them is a fair reflection of their comparitive merits. Clear enough?
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Even if the winner dosses in front both times - a trait evident in almost every single steeplechase he completed, Gareth?
 
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