Tingle Creek

If he was having such easy races that season, how come he was never the same afterwards?

Like Well Chief wasn't.

And like Azertyuiop wasn't.
 
Probably because he was an 11yo at the time, and age withers them all eventually.
 
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Gareth Flynn said:
I believe that if two top-class fit horses race only twice, both over two miles with fences at two different courses three months apart and that both are ridden out and at the end of it the result is the same to within half a length, and general opinion is that both races represented the upper limit of their entire career performances, then the strong likelihood is that the difference between them is a fair reflection of their comparitive merits. Clear enough?
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what is "clear" ...is that you go on RP comments way too much Gareth

using the judgement of your own eye...and asking yourself if the beaten horse would ever beat the winner...is more relevant...particularly in this case

its usually me that gets accused of set square race analysis :blink:

but..in your world...WC is just the bare 2 lengths only inferior to MF...and most on here think MM is superior to MF

so...going back to my original view...on that footing alone WC ain't ever going to beat MM...the ratings...that most think are God...say that MM would be beating WC 4 or 5 lengths

my view from watching MF v WC...is that MF would win each time...just on the visual evidence
 
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Sorry - made an assumption and edited my post.

The reason why MF was never the same, was because he simply got too old to remain competitive.
 
EC1 said:
...the ratings...that most think are God...say that MM would be beating WC 4 or 5 lengths
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Not sure that anyone thinks the official handicapper's ratings are gospel, EC1. Indeed, I think he's out to the tune of a half-stone, as far as MM is concerned.
 
I have no idea where your first point there is coming from, EC. Why should I think that Well Chief ever looked like beating Moscow? I have him as a solidly 2 length inferior animal.
 
i know a lot do love the ratings though Grass

MM..to me is a difficult one..he was awesome in the CC..and was the same today

maybe Warbler would like to give us some speed ratings for:

MM today
MM at Cheltenham
Best raing for WC
Best rating for MF
 
Gareth Flynn said:
I have no idea where your first point there is coming from, EC. Why should I think that Well Chief ever looked like beating Moscow? I have him as a solidly 2 length inferior animal.
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you seemed to be saying that 2 lengths wasn't much..whereas I think...the paper distance doesn't really reflect the difference between the 2 horses

basically...if another horse had been alongside MF after the last...and pressed him hard..I feel that WC would have been beaten further than 2 lengths...as Grass says...MF wasn't all out

I can't quantify it..its just the impression I got with those races.
 
I was taking issue with your statement that Well Chief was "quite a way" behind Moscow.

There's no evidence to suggest that, all things being equal, Moscow should ever have been beaten by Well Chief. But Moscow is an all-time great horse because he was pushed to be by top-class horses, not because he had some mystery amount in reserve. The form, and his legacy, is rock-solid because he did it on the track.
 
Grasshopper said:
Master Minded is a worthy heir to Moscow Flyer's crown, but any evidence suggesting he could beat mrs Harrington's horse over 2m - let alone give him weight in doing so - is extremely fragile.
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Wholeheartedly agree. Nothing that MM has beaten has gone on to prove itself worthy of any sort of comparison with Azerty or WC. MM is clearly a wonderful horse but he has beaten nothing relative to what Moscow competed against
 
Gareth Flynn said:
He really is just like Kauto isn't he? Capable of great jumps before ploughing through the next one, travels beautifully, cruises around...
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He jumped beautifully the whole way round today; in fact, with the exception of unseating Sam Thomas at Exeter on his first start in the UK and his mistake two out at Aintree, his jumping has been exceptional.
 
trackside528 said:
He jumped beautifully the whole way round today; in fact, with the exception of unseating Sam Thomas at Exeter on his first start in the UK and his mistake two out at Aintree, his jumping has been exceptional.
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I thought he hit whichever one it was that Twist Magic fell at?
 
If VPU goes on to win the King George (i don;t think it will happen but it might) would he then be the first horse to be both the worst winner of a Champion Chase, the worst winner of an Arkle and the worst winner of a King George?
 
Irish Stamp said:
I would Betsmate - we're in danger of putting Moscow into some kind of "untouchables" category that Arkle is in. Did Moscow ever beat a reigning Champion Chaser by 19 lengths .
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Beating a good QM winner (Azertyuiop) by five or ten lengths is way more meritorious than beating a poor one (Voy Por Ustedes) by who cares how many.
 
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