York Ebor Meeting

Yes this is what I was saying.

Guys, Frankel beat Farrh and St Nicholas Abbey in his Juddmonte.

He then beat Cirrus Des Aigles and Nathaniel in his final run over 1M2F at Newmarket.

I put it to you that Mishriff is as good or even better than all those above.

On what we have seen, I think Frankel was the better miler while Baaeed could be the better 10F horse.

What could baaeed face at Newmarket?

What will he have to beat to be an equal to Frankel over 10F?

The fact is Frankel never met a Baaeed and vice versa.

You really should just give it a miss Marb if that's your take on Mishriff

Cirrus Des Aigles was in a different league to Mishriff he was at one time rated higher than Baaeed FFS
Nathaniel was a 128 horse after winning the King George

Baaeed is a very smart horse no denying that but this era is absolute shyte and Frankel would never have been out of a common canter to beat any of them
 
Have to say I agree Tanlic but like his sire Baaeed will never run to his true rating , doing enough without emptying himself.
Believe Excelebration received an exaggerated rating to justify Frankel's top ratings (not to take anything from either horse.)
Joe Mercer maintained Frankel beat trees compared to Bregadier Gerard so each to their own.
I truly believe there would be room for Mishriff, Excelebration and a lot of other "trees" in most racing stables.

I must say saying such a thing seems totally out of charachter for the late Joe Mercer.

I find it hard to agree that Frankel beat trees.

One race in particular stands out for me and that was the Sussex Stakes

Canford Cliffs was an absolute superstar in his own right.

Previous to the race he had beaten the brilliant Goldikova

She had won 9 from her last 10 all group 1's and he beat her with ease.

Richard Hannon to this day would argue he was the best he ever trained and a tree? Never in the creation of man
 
Underrating Baaeed because Sir Busker was maybe a bit too close is a mistake. He broke the best horse that's what matters.

I don't think that's what's happening, though.

Let's say they went too fast up front. It looks for all the world like they did. Let's say that favoured Sir Busker out the back and that he ran his race. Remember, I was backing him in races like the Queen Anne and Lockinge as a value outsider because I have a rating for him that would put him in the mix for places in such races and it looks like he has improved for stepping up to ten furlongs. A bit late in the day, but there you go. It happens...

I reckon it's fair to say that he and the Dubai horse have pretty much run to their best form. Mishriff has beaten them a few lengths but his best form is some way better than that, so we can conclude that he ran below form. The reason for that is almost certainly because he didn't use his energy efficiently by chasing, to an extent, the pace.

Baaeed has come from a little way off the pace, picked up the leaders on the bit and been asked to put the race to bed and win eased off a bit. Putting a figure on it isn't about rating Baaeed. It's simply putting a figure on the performance, not the horse. We've no idea how much better than the performance he really is.

And that's a wee bit of a pity. It was fairly easy to rate Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef because they were regularly ridden out to the line in true run races, beating good G1 horses by huge margins. It's so much more difficult when they only do what they have to.

Frankel had a succession of 'wow' performances that were genuinely measurable.

I suspect the sectionals will give Mishriff a big upgrade. They'll probably give Baaeed one too, maybe not as big, but he had plenty in reserve on top of that, at least to these eyes.

So I certainly wouldn't be using the performance of Sir B to under-rate Baaeed.
 
…….Yes, but it's a natural tendency of punters to try and figure out how the best in one generation compares to the best in other generations…….

Very true, desert, but they are irresolvable opinions. I remember them for different reasons as the best I’ve seen.

Frankel - the eye popping way he just galloped rivals into the ground.

Baaeed - never off the bit until very late (if at all) and cruising to win without breaking sweat. Yesterday’s race will live long in the memory for that.

Sea Bird - the guy next to me shouted “Sea Bird wins” as he started his challenge in the Derby from around eighth place some three out. From there he just cantered through the field and won as easy as you like.

Brigadier Gerard - making all in a top class Sussex at Goodwood and moving steadily away from them in the last five.
 
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Underrating Baaeed because Sir Busker was maybe a bit too close is a mistake. He broke the best horse that's what matters.

Similar thing happened in Faugheen's Champion Hurdle. He broke Jezki and Hurricane Fly and the more optimally ridden Arctic Fire strolled in for second. Underrating Faugheen because of the second's proximity was a mistake though, not that I recall a lot of people falling into that trap.

Gracious - remembering how Trucker’s Tavern running on past exhausted horses was frequently used as a stick to beat Best Mate .

I always thought Mishriff was pretty overrated but I doubt he is the same horse as last year as his string of defeats would suggest . Hardly,Baaeed’s fault that he is dazzling against second rate opposition . A rating of 133 would seem fair to me. I think it is fair for him to have the highest rating since Frankel and STS but he has never beaten horses as good as those despatched by those two.
 
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Ran keen didn't last home,plenty of encouragement for thr low draw though, which adds to Blue For You's chance in the Clipper.
 
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Gracious - remembering how Trucker’s Tavern running on past exhausted horses was frequently used as a stick to beat Best Mate .

I always thought Mishriff was pretty overrated but I doubt he is the same horse as last year as his string of defeats would suggest . Hardly,Baaeed’s fault that he is dazzling against second rate opposition . A rating of 133 would seem fair to me. I think it is fair for him to have the highest rating since Frankel and STS but he has never beaten horses as good as those despatched by those two.
If Mishriff is over-rated, I'll stand shooting.:mad:
 
Gracious - remembering how Trucker’s Tavern running on past exhausted horses was frequently used as a stick to beat Best Mate .

Best Mate got the same TV treatment that Baaeed gets. Because he won three Gold Cups he was being compared with Arkle, which was just plain crazy. Baaeed wins some of the same races that Fankel wins and suddenly he's the next Frankel. I don't think I ever gave Best Mate a figure higher than 178 - which is top class - but he was no Arkle. Baaeed will probably get at least 135 from the handicapper - a rare high rating - but he hasn't posted a performance - yet - that would put him in the 140s.


I always thought Mishriff was pretty overrated

I'm not seeing what grounds there might be for concluding Mishriff was over-rated last year.
 
There must be a fair chance he can post a 140+ at Newmarket though.

I just hope more than 3 runners turn up.
 
well blow me hhave they not just gone and given Baaeed a BHA rating of 135 straight out if their azz.

FFs he beat a 124 rated hors who ran to about 120 if you are lucky by 6 lengths how the hell does that compute to 135????

It reminds me of the media propaganda that got that idiot Joe Biden elected.

Just anything to sell newpapers and keep websites bringing in the dosh and fool the racing public into believing every second star is a superstar.

The problem is that there is nothing that can realistically boost his rating by much
Frankel had some real stars to play with Baaeed has nothing of note

So what do they do...just make it up anyway

On the bright side they are now talking about a possible crack at the Arc.
 
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Interesting interview between Haggs and Chapman. The look on Williams face when Chapman said he should never have campaigned the horse at a mile was priceless.
 
In the meantime I am growing more confident abouy Royal Acaim by the minute and I am going in again.

Initically a 5star***** bet he will be 8star********bet ...fooker better win :)
 
Can someone tell Luke Morris he's won and he can put his whip down now :lol:

great guy to have on your side if you're backing ew as he's one of the few who never stops trying even when beaten
but he doesn't half get carried away at times.

Good to see Tuesday bounce back, hopefully Westover can get back to the form he showed in the Derbys.

He may be going to the St Leger but I'd love to see him take his chance in the Arc if they can get him back to his best.

If Baaeed does run it could be an Arc to savour witha cracking good field.
 
Dramatised should win the Lowther, seemingly saved for it since Ascot, and Blue For You could provide the double in the Clipper Logistics, though DT has work to do from that draw.
Alpinista looks best in the feature.
Class will out eh, Fist.:lol:
 
Baaeed will probably get at least 135 from the handicapper - a rare high rating -

135 it is.

Looks like the handicapper has either taken a literal line with Dubai Honour (OR 117, which I mentioned earlier in the thread), beaten 9 lengths @ 2lbs per length (which most handicappers would do), and allowed him an extra pound for easing off; or more likely, I reckon, is that the handicapper uses the same scale as I do, which would allow 1.7lbs for the extended 10f ( -> 15.5lbs) and an extra 3lbs for the ease of victory. He'll probably explain it in his blog in due course.
 
I think fillies races are to be avoided. Golden Lyra had form ties to the oaks via Nashwa, the winner had won a ******* novice at Wolves.

I agree. I tend only to look at the G1s.

In my preview for Golden Lyra's race I concluded:

I had a quick look at this but there are too many unknown quantities in it.


I didn't even watch the race. No result would have surprised me.

Ahead of the Y'shire Oaks I wrote:

I’m just going to watch this race. I have both Alpinista and Tuesday ante-post for the Arc at 20/1 and 16/1 respectively so don’t mind if they finish first and second in any order.


Much more reliable form. I didn't watch this race either. I'll catch up on it later but it can't have done the ante-post bets any harm although I'm not convinced Tuesday will go to Longchamp.
 
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