2 Mile Chasers 21/22

Twitter makes me laugh. Thinking First Flow could disrupt Energumene up top.

1. Energumene doesn’t need to lead anyway. Others just can’t go his gallop.
2. He had Notebook, a better horse, absolutely broken on his first run of the season.

If i had to pick Id go Energumene, purely cause I think the jockeys better. A race of this quality could he won by the slighest things.
 
Euronymous said:
The job Energumene did on Notebook (race fit) was Frankel/Denman like.
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I'm not just picking you out Euro this applies to Slim and to Grassy.

Isuggest you go back and watch the Hilly Way again.

Notebook who finished lame while he wouldn't have won stopped like shot which had very little to do the . You can clearly see he is in distress,

Energumene is not pulling away from the horse Sizing Potsie, Sising Postsie is gaining on him.....Then he absolutely roots the 2nd last and he stops like shot.

To say he did a job on Notebook as you describe it or for anyone to say the race comapres favourable with the Desert Orchid....That quite frankly is bollocks.

That aside will Shishkin beat him? Fooked if I know because there is no formyou can possibly use as a guide. In these races something has got to finish 3rd and 4th
but you can bet when they meet again ina race like the Arkle or the QMCC those same horse will finish a fence behind them
 
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Ignore Notebook and focus on the other runners in the Hilly Way. Sizing Pottsie catching him on the run in? What? Hhe was already off the bridle and being pushed along! Regardless, even if he was 'catching' Energumene, it makes absolutely no provision for the ease with which Energumene won (head in his chest and never remotely in trouble).

If your argument is that Energumene would have been caught in another furlong/2 furlongs/however many you care to add.....or that he was otherwise coming to the end of his tether....I might die laughing.

The fact you've already said you would go 2/5 Shishkin suggests you very-much have an opinion on who will win - and that's fair enough.......just don't make bullish*it arguments you can't back-up to justify it. It's the dogmatism with which you make these statements which you get pulled-up on - nothing else.
 
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Go back watch the race read my post and then come back and talk sense....I said the horse was gaining on him after Notebook fell away...to emphasize the point Notebook had gone wrong of his own Accord.,the vet confirmed that...was nothing to do with Enegunene suddenly finding extra grears as Sizing was getting closer until he made that bad mistake 2 out...no one mentioned his catching him on the run in...you pulled that out of a hat
 
That is simply is nonsense...They were held up out the backdoor hoping to pounce and grab some place money from those who decided to take Energumene on.

You see the same tactics used every other day by horses that have no chance on paper

The gallop was far from exceptional, not that anyone has cared to check, the fact is his time was slightly slower than Cocertista'a in the only other chase, the mares , that day.
 
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Grasshopper said:
Ignore Notebook and focus on the other runners in the Hilly Way. Sizing Pottsie catching him on the run in? What? Hhe was already off the bridle and being pushed along! Regardless, even if he was 'catching' Energumene, it makes absolutely no provision for the ease with which Energumene won (head in his chest and never remotely in trouble).
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I'm not sure I agree with that, GH.

The key element of the Hilly Way was the injection of pace mid-race when Notebook took on Energumene.

I ran the race alongside the mares' CD race and there was nothing between them through the first third before Notebook made his move and Energumene responded.

Over the next three fences they put about 20 lengths between themselves and the mares before the latter started reeling them in from three out and there was very little in it at the line.

While it may have looked easy enough for Energumene on the run-in, I think he was being looked after, having been forced to go inefficiently fast at the 'wrong' stage of the race. I think he was tired, which would be acceptable and understandable in the circumstances.

While there was very little in it in terms of overall times, I'd have to say that if Energumene had been ridden more efficiently in terms of the sectionals, he would probably have beaten the mare's time by about five seconds. But I don't think he could have done it with his head in his chest.

I also think, like you, the form is within a pound or so of what Shishkin did to Greaneteen.

Different ways of arriving at similar conclusions.
 
As is usual these days, DO, I find myself getting dragged into an off-the-point discussion with Tanlic, which has limited relevance to the original topic.

Whatever the clock says, the simple fact is that Energumene has won 8L giving weight away all round, to horses rated in the 150's.....and he's done it without ever being troubled. And by your own account, he has done it despite having to run inefficient fractions mid-race, and likely being looked after a shade too. Any way I look at it, he has still won with his head in his chest - though if that phrase is too bold, I'll happily settle for what the race comments say i.e. "easily".

Tanlic doesn't want to discuss the relevant merits of the form of the Kempton and Naas races. All he wants to do is state one is better than the other, offering not much more than "Shishkin beat the winner of the Tingle Creek, therefore he is indisputably better". There is no winning when this sort of garbage is thrown back at you, despite my efforts to try and stitch some of the form lines together via Captain Guiness - which I admitted was imperfect. All I get in return is "His is an ordinary animal".

It's a flat joke trying to discuss the merits of horses with Tanlic, because he doesn't do such subtleties as actually looking at the form before and trying to dissect it, before he adopts his position....which never changes no matter what arguments you throw at him.

It's a complete waste of my time.
 
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I like energumene a lot and loved his run last time out

I had thought he could be a 3mie horse but after that, looks a sure fire 2 miler

So how does he go about Beating Shish?

Pretty agressively is my take, Shish will finish like a train so do you try take some early sting from him and how far back does Nico sit

Also given the odds and a Mullins horse coming over, any chance of a good gamble on Energumene
 
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Desert Orchid said:
I'm not sure I agree with that, GH.

The key element of the Hilly Way was the injection of pace mid-race when Notebook took on Energumene.

I ran the race alongside the mares' CD race and there was nothing between them through the first third before Notebook made his move and Energumene responded.

Over the next three fences they put about 20 lengths between themselves and the mares before the latter started reeling them in from three out and there was very little in it at the line.

While it may have looked easy enough for Energumene on the run-in, I think he was being looked after, having been forced to go inefficiently fast at the 'wrong' stage of the race. I think he was tired, which would be acceptable and understandable in the circumstances.

While there was very little in it in terms of overall times, I'd have to say that if Energumene had been ridden more efficiently in terms of the sectionals, he would probably have beaten the mare's time by about five seconds. But I don't think he could have done it with his head in his chest.

I also think, like you, the form is within a pound or so of what Shishkin did to Greaneteen.

Different ways of arriving at similar conclusions.
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Concertista is a 152 mare.
 
Both horses very alike, PJ, in that neither has any problem with 2m4f. Tactically, I definitely expect Energumene to jump out and make it a thorough test - but I don't know that it is necessarily going to work, as I think Shishkin will be fine going any pace thrown at him, and still have enough in reserve to see out his race.

I'd be surprised if there's any sort of sustained gamble on Energumene, or that he displaces Shishkin as favourite.....but as I said previously, I think they will be tight on price at the off.

This has the potential to be the best 2m chase outside the Festival since the 2004 Tingle Creek. A proper race to savour.
 
Slim said:
Concertista is a 152 mare.
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Yes. (She's also the top-rated mare in the Mares' Hurdle field, which is why I backed her for that.)

I'm trying to argue that Energumene is at least five seconds - converting to over 25lbs - superior and therefore worthy of a very high rating, in the same ball-park figure as what Shishkin has achieved, without taking into account how much more either or both may be able to produce when it matters (which might not be tomorrow).
 
Grasshopper said:
As is usual these days, DO, I find myself getting dragged into an off-the-point discussion with Tanlic, which has limited relevance to the original topic.

Whatever the clock says, the simple fact is that Energumene has won 8L giving weight away all round, to horses rated in the 150's.....and he's done it without ever being troubled. And by your own account, he has done it despite having to run inefficient fractions mid-race, and likely being looked after a shade too. Any way I look at it, he has still won with his head in his chest - though if that phrase is too bold, I'll happily settle for what the race comments say i.e. "easily".

Tanlic doesn't want to discuss the relevant merits of the form of the Kempton and Naas races. All he wants to do is state one is better than the other, offering not much more than "Shishkin beat the winner of the Tingle Creek, therefore he is indisputably better". There is no winning when this sort of garbage is thrown back at you, despite my efforts to try and stitch some of the form lines together via Captain Guiness - which I admitted was imperfect. All I get in return is "His is an ordinary animal".

It's a flat joke trying to discuss the merits of horses with Tanlic, because he doesn't do such subtleties as actually looking at the form before and trying to dissect it, before he adopts his position....which never changes no matter what arguments you throw at him.

It's a complete waste of my time.
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I totally empathise with your frustrations, GH, which is why I have had him and a few others on ignore for a long time. Unfortunately I can see what he's written when people quote him but at least it reminds me of why I put him on ignore in the first place.

I find forum life much more meaningful without him in it.
 
Mullins did say he would be visiti the UK more this season and there simply isn't anywhere else to go until The Arkle late Feb
at least not that I can see.

His supporters are banking on him being fast enough to get Shishkin off the bridle and stay off the bridle..

He really doesn't give me the impression he's that fast or will last out if he goes tearing off like a lunatic. Shishkin looks to have failrly high crusing speed

I was sitting on the fence a bit butI am now very much in the Shishkin camp and I think he could win a lot easier than some of his fans expect.
 
Grasshopper said:
Both horses very alike, PJ, in that neither has any problem with 2m4f. Tactically, I definitely expect Energumene to jump out and make it a thorough test - but I don't know that it is necessarily going to work, as I think Shishkin will be fine going any pace thrown at him, and still have enough in reserve to see out his race.

I'd be surprised if there's any sort of sustained gamble on Energumene, or that he displaces Shishkin as favourite.....but as I said previously, I think they will be tight on price at the off.

This has the potential to be the best 2m chase outside the Festival since the 2004 Tingle Creek. A proper race to savour.
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One to savour indeed :). There’s only a cigarette paper between them on ratings, so on that basis it’s hard to call. It isn’t any easier forgetting about ratings either! Henderson says Shiskin is back to his fighting weight - said to have been burly last time out - and I think both will be near 100% since a sustained hard battle between them when they are not fully there wouldn’t do them much good. Heart says Shiskin, head says no bloody idea.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I totally empathise with your frustrations, GH, which is why I have had him and a few others on ignore for a long time. Unfortunately I can see what he's written when people quote him but at least it reminds me of why I put him on ignore in the first place.

I find forum life much more meaningful without him in it.
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Tanlic has his own way of doing things, (which we all do) and should be respected as such. The last line of the above is uncalled for, and reflects on you, much more than him. :mad:
 
If we all agreed on the forum the place would shut down in a week.

I will take anyone to task if I think they are wrong and try and put up the best case possible by rewatching races looking at times and studying the subject at hand before going to post
Too many just open their mouths and let their belly rumble...but it takes all sorts and to me are all are welcome

One thing I will never do is put another poster on an ignore list because he disagrees with me.

Or will I drag another poster into a debate to try and turn others gainst him.

I find that childish and it has no place on adult forum

The ability to block another poster should be removed IMO and replaced with bans temporary or otherwise by the Moderator.
 
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Grasshopper said:
Both horses very alike, PJ, in that neither has any problem with 2m4f. Tactically, I definitely expect Energumene to jump out and make it a thorough test - but I don't know that it is necessarily going to work, as I think Shishkin will be fine going any pace thrown at him, and still have enough in reserve to see out his race.

I'd be surprised if there's any sort of sustained gamble on Energumene, or that he displaces Shishkin as favourite.....but as I said previously, I think they will be tight on price at the off.

This has the potential to be the best 2m chase outside the Festival since the 2004 Tingle Creek. A proper race to savour.
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At start of year I thought Erg would be the 3 miler of the 2, now I think Shishkin would probably be more likely

An irrelevance to tomorrows race but something to bear in mind for future

I think Townend will make it a proper race tomorrow and hoope he goes all out

Shishk looked great from halfway on at kempton but wouldn't like to see him plod around like taht agin for the sake of a race for the ages
 
granger said:
Also given the odds and a Mullins horse coming over, any chance of a good gamble on Energumene
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interesting he's chosen this one for Energumene, obviously he wants to keep him and Chacun apart where he can but i'd be pretty sure the 2m chase at the DRF is more important to him, as the overall meeting is a big one for irish racing and in recent years he's fired plenty of his best bullets at it.

if he thinks Energumene is his best 2 miler i'm kind of surprised he didnt send Chacun to this and kept the former back for DRF. no idea what the situation is with the latter though, given he ran a stinker at sandown and didn't make the xmas race, maybe he wasn't ready for this one but food for thought nonetheless.
 
Ground a big factor James.

Guarantee of soft ground vs ground on soft side of good not watered sufficiently enough. Very little rain of note in the area over the 7-10 days.

He took a guarded swipe at the Leopardstown ground when interviewed over Christmas.
 
JamesRB said:
interesting he's chosen this one for Energumene, obviously he wants to keep him and Chacun apart where he can but i'd be pretty sure the 2m chase at the DRF is more important to him, as the overall meeting is a big one for irish racing and in recent years he's fired plenty of his best bullets at it.

if he thinks Energumene is his best 2 miler i'm kind of surprised he didnt send Chacun to this and kept the former back for DRF. no idea what the situation is with the latter though, given he ran a stinker at sandown and didn't make the xmas race, maybe he wasn't ready for this one but food for thought nonetheless.
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Chacun will win at Leop and keeps Ricci happy

Erg has a UK owner and it got to the point where Shishk didnt fold and Mullins couldn't really either
 
Chacun was lame before Xmas thats why we never saw him. Someone from the yard called him a big softie and could injure himself walking on cotton wool.

His form in the Champion Chase and the Durkan is outstanding and WPM said he was his banker for the QMCC when it all went wrong.

If he does bounce backon his best form he'd beat Shishkinand Energumene but he's done nothing to indicate that will be the case.

WPM has entered him for a 2m1.5F race at the Dublin so maybe he still of a mind he's capable of getting up that Cheltenahm Hill
 
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