2016 Gold Cuppin

One thing you haven't considered is Vautour has only just turned 7 years old and is open to massive improvement.

Much more so than Cue Card who is now a 10 year old.

With spring on it's way I'd hope Vautour would be a stronger individual than he was in December come March.

Improvement in a horse can turn clocks and form books on their head very easily.

A lotta people were gobsmacked by Vautour's performance in the JLT and it was awesome.

My opinion is: If that had been a normal Saturday and he did that he would be the best thing since slice bread and everyone would be saying best horse in the country,,,unbeatable etc etc
 
You may be right or you may be wrong EC, but there's nothing wrong with the way your making your assessments.

If Vautour improves from the King George for better ground, going left-handed, being fitter, getting a lead in to the business end of the race, or any combination so be it. But I'd say if you're wrong with this, overall you'll be right more than you're wrong. It's just about considering the potential variables as well as the clock.

The bottom line is we all have our own way of reading form, and I certainly wouldn't be discounting the more scientific approach you prefer. If I had the time and the patience I'd be doing the same. Ultimately there's more than one way of sniffing out winners and discounting losers, and anyone who has a method of making it work ans staying ahead I have the utmost respect for.

For what it's worth though I think you'll be proven right. :D

Although I wouldn't mind having Grassy's ticket at 16/1 as I'd be laying it whether I thought you were right or wrong! :cool:
 
Maruco said:
Although I wouldn't mind having Grassy's ticket at 16/1 as I'd be laying it whether I thought you were right or wrong! :cool:
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Undiluted greed will ensure I hold onto it until the bitter end. :cool:

Agree with everything you have said about EC's approach. He shares his work willingly, and his inputs are always thought-provoking - a forum trooper.
 
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don't encourage him Grass..thats some of the clumsiest post moving i've witnessed..good job they don't get you movie editing Tanlic...the end would at the beginning:)
 
Ruby Walsh column.

Djakadam travelled and jumped well up to the point he fell at Cheltenham on Saturday. We had just gone past halfway and I couldn’t have been happier.
I am not sure why he fell. He was on a very long stride but he shortened himself just before the fence. We went to pop over it and didn’t get that tight, but he got overly high behind and ended up on his head.
His jumping had been brilliant since he last fell in the JLT at the Festival two years ago. I didn’t see it coming as he’s normally a very good jumper but I suppose it’s better to fall in the trial than in six weeks’ time.
I wouldn’t put anyone off backing him for the Gold Cup. I was at Willie’s (Mullins) yesterday and his vet was very happy with him and he’s 100% now.

:ninja:
 
Frankel said:
Ruby Walsh column.

Djakadam travelled and jumped well up to the point he fell at Cheltenham on Saturday. We had just gone past halfway and I couldn’t have been happier.
I am not sure why he fell. He was on a very long stride but he shortened himself just before the fence. We went to pop over it and didn’t get that tight, but he got overly high behind and ended up on his head.
His jumping had been brilliant since he last fell in the JLT at the Festival two years ago. I didn’t see it coming as he’s normally a very good jumper but I suppose it’s better to fall in the trial than in six weeks’ time.
I wouldn’t put anyone off backing him for the Gold Cup with Paul Townend on. I was at Willie’s (Mullins) yesterday and his vet was very happy with him and he’s 100% now.

:ninja:
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Fixed that for you Frankel ;)
 
This from Cattermole's SL column:

"Any small chance that Ruby Walsh would be riding Djakadam in just over six weeks' time evaporated at the tenth fence. It is the second time that Djakadam has fallen at Cheltenham, both interestingly at downhill fences, and the gelding left the course heavily bruised and stitched up. Only a runaway win on Saturday would have caused Ruby to even briefly consider getting off Vautour."

:ninja:

:lol:
 
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Grasshopper said:
This from Cattermole's SL column:

"Any small chance that Ruby Walsh would be riding Djakadam in just over six weeks' time evaporated at the tenth fence. It is the second time that Djakadam has fallen at Cheltenham, both interestingly at downhill fences, and the gelding left the course heavily bruised and stitched up. Only a runaway win on Saturday would have caused Ruby to even briefly consider getting off Vautour."

:ninja:

:lol:
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This is not fit for publication :lol:
 
To be fair, Townend would be no handicap - he is a top jockey.

Dunno if you saw the RUK Half-Term Report, but in my view, they (Lydia Hislop in particular, who "always thought this") made too much of a big things about Djakadam's fall. He lands too steeply at his fences - something evident as far back as his JLT run, apparently. As revisionism goes, it was pretty good. That said, he has fallen twice now at downhill fences, so - as a supporter of his - are you at all concerned about his jumping?

For me there isn't really a problem; he just got unlucky on Saturday, and he still commands plenty of respect in the Gold Cup.

I also tend to agree with you on Cattermole. I'm very selective about quoting him, as you can see. :lol:
 
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It doesn't really matter who rides who. They'll both be looking at Don Poli's arse as he powers to glory up that hill.


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I did see yes.
To be fair I was concerned at one fence myself before the fall, though it was slightly obscured by another runner so could be mistaken.
He is though in essence a very good jumper. Even good jumpers can fall though, Kauto and Moscow for example. So I'm not concerned really. Your chance is always in the air in this game so have to take it on the chin when it does happen. Well Chief being prime example in the QM year when he would have hacked up. That was a dagger in the heart emotionally, turned out to be financially too later in the week.
 
Gold Cuppin

Frankel said:
When they lap him you mean :lol: :D
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You gotta love this notion that Don Poli is slow. Lazy, yes but slow, not a hope! He has a serious engine and had enough speed to win the Martin Pipe over 2m4f on good ground at the festival. He certainly fools people into thinking he's a tortoise. Don't believe me tho, take Bryan Cooper's word for it;



"He jumps very well and travels really strongly through his races. But he’s a bit lazy.

In Cheltenham (RSA), he jumped well but needed to be nudged along at the back of a few of the fences – enough to get people that backed him worried for a few strides, at least those that hadn’t seen him before anyway.

But, when he saw daylight, he really came alive. He quickened away really well from the back of the last to win impressively.

I’d have to say that he was a bit untidy at the second last. But, if he had winged it, I think he would have won by ten or 15 lengths"

Or even Willie Mullins on the horses last visit to Cheltenham & indeed the last time he got good ground;
(Comments made as he watched race replay)



“He’s lazy so you couldn’t call him exciting but he has an engine alright: but he won with plenty in hand. He could have gone round again. He's not even racing, only going half speed and he has destroyed them there. He has all the ability in the world but these type of chasers tend to keep a bit for themselves. He had far more reserves in the locker than I thought he would have. His two ears are moving back and forward and, when a horse is doing that, he is only idling - he's going at half-speed and is ready for anything that comes from behind. He's not even racing coming up the straight, he is only galloping, looking around. It's a sure sign that he has got lots left in the locker."


I thought after that RSA he was tailor-made for the gold cup. I think he'll hit the front between the last two and there'll be nothing passing him from there in. Im on him for a while now, 2 different antepost bets at 16s and 10/1 & wouldn't swap them for anything else in the race.


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Frankel said:
I did see yes.
To be fair I was concerned at one fence myself before the fall, though it was slightly obscured by another runner so could be mistaken.
He is though in essence a very good jumper. Even good jumpers can fall though, Kauto and Moscow for example. So I'm not concerned really. Your chance is always in the air in this game so have to take it on the chin when it does happen. Well Chief being prime example in the QM year when he would have hacked up. That was a dagger in the heart emotionally, turned out to be financially too later in the week.
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I would not compare two milers with staying chasers re falling simply for the reason that two milers seem to have no memory.
They fall, get up and get on with it as if nothing has happened; remember Un De Sceaux at Christmas, he got up after falling and "won" the race going away riderless.
Never have I seen a stayer do that after a fall late in a race.
The only "good " thing about the fall was it happened reasonably early before the horse was tired, he was caught immediately and spared a tough enough race had he stayed standing.
Tied Cottage to be fair won an Irish National after his last fence Gold Cup fall but he a bit of a lunatic in his own way ( Ml Ennis rode him to win his first novice chase when the horse was considered too much of a risk for Tommy Carberry !)
 
edgt said:
I would not compare two milers with staying chasers re falling simply for the reason that two milers seem to have no memory.
They fall, get up and get on with it as if nothing has happened; remember Un De Sceaux at Christmas, he got up after falling and "won" the race going away riderless.
Never have I seen a stayer do that after a fall late in a race.
The only "good " thing about the fall was it happened reasonably early before the horse was tired, he was caught immediately and spared a tough enough race had he stayed standing.
Tied Cottage to be fair won an Irish National after his last fence Gold Cup fall but he a bit of a lunatic in his own way ( Ml Ennis rode him to win his first novice chase when the horse was considered too much of a risk for Tommy Carberry !)
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I wasn't really comparing 2 milers with stayers. Just an example of how even good jumpers can fall.
UDS at xmas was incredible.
Are you trying to say 2 miles are not the brightest? :D

Agree in that maybe a 'plus' Djakadam fell before he had had a race.
 
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Kauto Abu said:
You gotta love this notion that Don Poli is slow. Lazy, yes but slow, not a hope! He has a serious engine and had enough speed to win the Martin Pipe over 2m4f on good ground at the festival. He certainly fools people into thinking he's a tortoise. Don't believe me tho, take Bryan Cooper's word for it;



"He jumps very well and travels really strongly through his races. But he’s a bit lazy.

In Cheltenham (RSA), he jumped well but needed to be nudged along at the back of a few of the fences – enough to get people that backed him worried for a few strides, at least those that hadn’t seen him before anyway.

But, when he saw daylight, he really came alive. He quickened away really well from the back of the last to win impressively.

I’d have to say that he was a bit untidy at the second last. But, if he had winged it, I think he would have won by ten or 15 lengths"

Or even Willie Mullins on the horses last visit to Cheltenham & indeed the last time he got good ground;
(Comments made as he watched race replay)



“He’s lazy so you couldn’t call him exciting but he has an engine alright: but he won with plenty in hand. He could have gone round again. He's not even racing, only going half speed and he has destroyed them there. He has all the ability in the world but these type of chasers tend to keep a bit for themselves. He had far more reserves in the locker than I thought he would have. His two ears are moving back and forward and, when a horse is doing that, he is only idling - he's going at half-speed and is ready for anything that comes from behind. He's not even racing coming up the straight, he is only galloping, looking around. It's a sure sign that he has got lots left in the locker."


I thought after that RSA he was tailor-made for the gold cup. I think he'll hit the front between the last two and there'll be nothing passing him from there in. Im on him for a while now, 2 different antepost bets at 16s and 10/1 & wouldn't swap them for anything else in the race.


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Am pulling your leg to a point.

Liked him for RSA last season and thought afterwards him a genuine Gold Cup contender this.
However there are serious opposition and I wasn't overly impressed last time out.
On better ground he just may get too far behind to play a hand. We'll see.
 
Gold Cuppin

I know that Frankel but that perception is out there about him isn't it. In conversations about the GC i've had it said to me more than once about him being too slow!!

I reckon he actually hated that ground at Christmas, it was bottomless but he still got it done unlike his 2 more illustrious stablemates and if they went another furlong DP would've held FL all the way. He even showed a turn of foot in that ground coming to the last before completely idling up the straight! His best performances have come on better ground so that's what I'd be hoping for come March.

No doubt we'll see Cooper, (I fully expect him to pick him over DC even tho cossack is the apple of Gigginstown's eye) nudge him along after a few fences but it'd be more to wake him up.

I think he could well win the GC in the style of Bobs Worth. Looked in trouble 3 out but absolutely devoured the hill to win by a few lengths.


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