2016 Gold Cuppin

Kauto Abu said:
I know that Frankel but that perception is out there about him isn't it. In conversations about the GC i've had it said to me more than once about him being too slow!!

I reckon he actually hated that ground at Christmas, it was bottomless but he still got it done unlike his 2 more illustrious stablemates and if they went another furlong DP would've held FL all the way. He even showed a turn of foot in that ground coming to the last before completely idling up the straight! His best performances have come on better ground so that's what I'd be hoping for come March.

No doubt we'll see Cooper, (I fully expect him to pick him over DC even tho cossack is the apple of Gigginstown's eye) nudge him along after a few fences but it'd be more to wake him up.

I think he could well win the GC in the style of Bobs Worth. Looked in trouble 3 out but absolutely devoured the hill to win by a few lengths.


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I agree with you Kauto,have backed him accordingly too.I think we may see him running in snatches but if he's in contention a few out He'd be the one I would want to be on.Only ever seems to do enough which in this line up could be something special considering they've not got close to the bottom of him.
 
Kauto Abu said:
I know that Frankel but that perception is out there about him isn't it. In conversations about the GC i've had it said to me more than once about him being too slow!!

I reckon he actually hated that ground at Christmas, it was bottomless but he still got it done unlike his 2 more illustrious stablemates and if they went another furlong DP would've held FL all the way. He even showed a turn of foot in that ground coming to the last before completely idling up the straight! His best performances have come on better ground so that's what I'd be hoping for come March.

No doubt we'll see Cooper, (I fully expect him to pick him over DC even tho cossack is the apple of Gigginstown's eye) nudge him along after a few fences but it'd be more to wake him up.

I think he could well win the GC in the style of Bobs Worth. Looked in trouble 3 out but absolutely devoured the hill to win by a few lengths.


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You've nailed your colours. No problem with that.

The Cooper decision I find intriguing.
 
If Don Poli was any slower he'd stop. Of course he is slow he's a grinder and grinds inferior animals into the ground or unfit ones in some cases.

He ran the Lexus in what must be the slowest time in history.......A race you would expect to be run in the fastest time in the card wasn't just slow it was 10 and 20 seconds slower than other race on the card...Aintree was exactly the same........again he recorded the slowest time on the card. Cheltenham againhe was on average the slowest time on the card bar 1. These were all stamina tests and although they Gold Cup is too it's not won by the slowest of the slow like Don Poli. He'll be going when many others have stopped but against speed horses like Vautour and Cue Card he's going to find himself being passed like a tree when the race starts in earnest about 3 out and he'll never get back into it.

His slow motion defeats of an unfit Many Clouds and scraping home from the professional loser First Lieutenant is a mile off Gold Cup standard as was RSA win.

Don Poli is the first horse you should draw aline through in a Gold Cup ..especially one like this years.
 
Sites going bonkers again with double posts.

It's pretty much common knowledge that Brian Cooper will ride Don Cossack.

Only 2 things will change that 1.He works like a stuffed pig a few days before the race 2. The ground at Cheltenham is hock deep.
 
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tiggers1972 said:
A line through ManY Clouds and First Lieutenant would suggest Don Poli has plenty to find.
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But in doing that comparison aren't you ignoring the fact that the horse is as lazy as lazy comes and he only does enough to beat what he's beaten by what ever is necessary. He is never going to win a race easily by 15L when a good scrap is available and you'll never see him demolish a Many Clouds in the way Smad Place did last week. That's just not a fair comparison in my opinion. He'll hit the front when he's produced but it's trying to get by him is the problem for others. He holds enough to keep everything at bay. I can't think of one horse that's passed him after hitting the front since he went chasing.

Like take that Aintree run in early December. MC had had a run & the general feeling was he'd have improved immeasurable for that Charlie Hall run. It was Don Poli's seasonal debut and his style is so lazy he looked like he was going to be well beat, he just plugged on and even with a badly slipped saddle still done enough to win.

Mullins is on record as saying because he's so lazy he's incredibly hard to train, he just doesn't want to do it at home but he'll be trained for 18 March and I've no doubt he'll be produced there in top form. He got very tired in atrocious ground in the Lexus but still did enough.

They haven't got next nor near the bottom of him yet and when other horses are feeling that burn in their legs turning in Don Poli will be doing his best work.


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Tanlic said:
If Don Poli was any slower he'd stop. Of course he is slow he's a grinder and grinds inferior animals into the ground or unfit ones in some cases.

He ran the Lexus in what must be the slowest time in history......
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i have to assume you looking at the Racing post "above standard" figure when making this judgement.

I wouldn't rely too much on RP standard times in Ireland generally..and the 3 mile one at Leopardstwon is probably one of the biggest errors they have...its basically a joke.

The first question to ask is..do you think a flat track like Kempton is a stiffer than Leopardstown?..bearing in mind..from the back straight to the finish at Leopardstwon it climbs about 40 feet over that half circuit..its climbing all the way to the finish...whereas Kempton is basically flat. In reality Leopardstown has the same climb as Cheltenham but spread over a little further,...,that also climbs 40 feet from the botom of the hill to the finish.

I'd assume you would conclude that the 3 mile standard time at kempton is quicker than Leopardstown ..i think logic says that the standard times at flat tracks will be faster than uphill finish tracks like Cheltenham and Leopardstown. Bearing in mind there is one fence more to jump at kempton than Leopardstown..even with that you would expect the standard time at stiffer Leopardstown to be larger by a few seconds

Putting that to the test..

Racing Post Standard time

3m Kempton = 354 seconds
3m Leopardstown = 342 seconds

The Racing Post suggest that you can run 3m Leopardstwon 12 seconds faster than flat Kempton...really?

Completely worthless are those standards at Leopardstown

Going back to the lexus that Don Poli won..being the slowest in history...its not.. ..the listener and beef or salmno ran it slower..not because they were slow horses..simply because the ground was slower on those occasions than the norm..this years was on pretty poor ground too.

Lexus times
Don Poli 395.9
Road To Riches 393.9

When RTR won the ground was slowing them up by 40 lengths per mile..when Don Poli won..was 55 lengths per mile. It was a lot slower this year than last..but Don only ran 10 lengths slower overall than RTR.

Using the lexus times actually shows that Don Poli is not a slow horse at all..in fact when you allow for the going on both days..he has run faster than Road To Riches.
 
Gold Cuppin

Tanlic said:
If Don Poli was any slower he'd stop.
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A Martin Pipe win at the festival over 2m4f off 11st8lb would suggest otherwise.

His slow motion defeats of an unfit Many Clouds and scraping home from the professional loser First Lieutenant is a mile off Gold Cup standard as was RSA win.
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Really, so Many Clouds with a run under his belt was unfit at Aintree but Don Poli on seasonal debut was 100% wound up!!

Don Poli is the first horse you should draw aline through in a Gold Cup ..especially one like this years.
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This coming from a fella who is certain Peace & Co will beat Faugheen in the Champion hurdle.



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Tanlic said:
These were all stamina tests and although they Gold Cup is too it's not won by the slowest of the slow like Don Poli.
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I think that myth of Don Poli being the 'slowest of the slow' has just been totally crushed there but didn't Lord Windemere win a Gold Cup having been totally out paced for almost the entire race. Jim Colouty was under the assumption the horse would be pulled up he was so far back!!

I guess they do!


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Kauto Abu said:
I think that myth of Don Poli being the 'slowest of the slow' has just been totally crushed there but didn't Lord Windemere win a Gold Cup having been totally out paced for almost the entire race. Jim Colouty was under the assumption the horse would be pulled up he was so far back!!

I guess they do!


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Don Poli is not a slow 3 1/2m horse. Don Cossack is also not a slow horse. Both will be finishing a fair bit "faster" than most at the end. The Don's just need plenty of encouragement to keep going.
 
There is a difference between being slow, and lacking tactical pace and/or racing lazily. If DP hits a flat-spot/comes off the bridle jumping the last open ditch, he will get left behind as they turn and accelerate down the hill.

It's his ability to stay in contention long enough for his stamina to make a difference, that I see as his weakness, rather than the fact that he is "slow" - though I don't think there is any dispute that he isn't as "fast" as the likes of Vautour, Don Cossack and Cue Card.

Or maybe there is? :ninja:
 
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archie said:
Skybet odds.
Bryan Cooper mount
8/13 Don Poli
6/5 Don Cossack
20/1 Road To Riches
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But isn't it common knowledge that Cooper will ride Don Cossack? Obviously no-one's told the bookies :lol:

Don't forget Synchronised as well. He was outpaced before staying on past them all.
 
archie said:
Skybet odds.
Bryan Cooper mount
8/13 Don Poli
6/5 Don Cossack
20/1 Road To Riches

Ruby Walsh mount
2/7 Vautour
5/2 Djakadam
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Cooper would need his head examined if he went with Cossack over Poli in my opinion. DC is hugely talented but on his previous visits to the course it was clear that, as a big framed horse, he didn't enjoy the undulations of the course.

Don Poli on the other hand is 2/2 at the course and on both occasions it looked like the course plays to his strengths.

Again like Ruby with his choice if he was to choose DC, and that may well be the case, you'd have Davy Russell in who knows hoe to ride a GC winner in the style that DP runs in with someone like Johnny Burke picking up the ride on Road to Riches if he goes there.


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The horses running in this Gold Cup are a class apart from the ones which Lord Windermere and Synchronised beat in their Gold Cups.

I think the comparison is fair (i.e. thorough stayers tend to win Gold Cups) - though only up to a point. Class of opposition has to count too.
 
Digger said:
Don Poli is not a slow 3 1/2m horse. Don Cossack is also not a slow horse. Both will be finishing a fair bit "faster" than most at the end. The Don's just need plenty of encouragement to keep going.
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correct

The race at Aintree with Many Clouds for instance being exactly what a horse like him doesn't need..being asked to change gear off a none testing gallop was basically like asking a 12f flat horse to win a 7f race..but he still won it against the odds...thats a major plus for anyone supporting the horse

Rather than using that race to show how slow he is as Tanlic pointed out earlier..it does exactly the opposite. speed horses win slow races..stamina horses win fast races basically..he is a stamina horse that won a speed race..he should be getting credit for that win not the opposite

This slow/fast thing is really stamina/speed ...Don Poli..will get going when the others have cried enough if the GC is a real test..as it looks like its going to be
 
Digger said:
Don Poli is not a slow 3 1/2m horse. Don Cossack is also not a slow horse. Both will be finishing a fair bit "faster" than most at the end. The Don's just need plenty of encouragement to keep going.
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correct

The race at Aintree with Many Clouds for instance being exactly what a horse like him doesn't need..being asked to change gear off a none testing gallop was basically like asking a 12f flat horse to win a 7f race..but he still won it against the pace he would have hated...thats a major plus for anyone supporting the horse

Rather than using that race to show how slow he is as Tanlic pointed out earlier..it does exactly the opposite. speed horses win slow races..stamina horses win fast races basically..he is a stamina horse that won a speed race..he should be getting credit for that win not the opposite

This slow/fast thing is really stamina/speed ...Don Poli..will get going when the others have cried enough if the GC is a real test..as it looks like its going to be
 
Gold Cuppin

Bobs Worth was totally outpaced 3 out before staying up the hill against Long Run & Sir Des Champs, high quality horses. It looked as tho he was well behind on screen shot when it followed the first 2 but he came right back into in approaching 2 out and went on to win.

I said it earlier I believe DP could win this years GC in that same manner. I for one wont be too alarmed if i see him being ridden or nudged along 3 out. They're all going to come back to him once they take that final bend.


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