2016 Gold Cuppin

Alarming to note from previews thread that swedish chief reports that Ruby said he was bending the ears off Mullins and Ricci trying to get them to run Vautour in the Ryanair - seems his reported belief he will stay not as strong as we might have thought .
 
EC1 said:
i have a question for people who believe that Vautour will stay based on the KG

How can he beat CC?..because if you take the view that both proved stamina in the KG..then surely CC is the better stayer. If you showed that race to someone and asked them which of the first two would win with just another furlong added at Kempton..most would say CC as he just gets up on the line..so you would assume give another furlong he would have been 2 or 3 lengths up
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Ruby did say that another stride after the winning line he was back in front, also the fact that Paddy Brennan broke the rules by beating the **** out of Cue Card might also be a factor
 
ok

i just think that race taken in isolation makes it very hard to split them..i still think CC showed more stamina of the two based on that run
 
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Ardross said:
Alarming to note from previews thread that swedish chief reports that Ruby said he was bending the ears off Mullins and Ricci trying to get them to run Vautour in the Ryanair - seems his reported belief he will stay not as strong as we might have thought .
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I think he clarified on twitter later that he was joking. That way it would make it easier for him, no decision on who to ride. But he has said that he would be a cert in the Ryanair. His own words;

"“I think the Ryanair Chase is probably the weakest race of the Festival, and I would dearly love Vautour to run because I wouldn’t have to choose between him and Djakadam in the Gold Cup,” Walsh told host Oli Bell.

“I’d say there’s no chance he’ll run in it, but I’ll keep dreaming. I can’t see it happening, but I’m going to keep at it. I heard Road To Riches is going to run in this race, but I think he’s too slow, and I really fancy Smashing.”

That's smashing, De Bromhead's horse that that slow fella, what's his name...oh ya Don Poli gave an 8l thrashing to at Gowran last season!! ;)







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EC1 said:
ok

i just think that race taken in isolation makes it very hard to split them..i still think CC showed more stamina of the two based on that run
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I agree EC ,the race in isolation makes it very hard to split them, but I believe Cue Card was more forward that Vautour and although a different horse this year ,age is not on his side. I will be very surprised if the KG didn't leave a mark on him for the rest of the season. I sincerely hope that Smad place sets the pace for most of the race as although there was difference tactics used on him in the KG in my view he was run off his feet. Its all a matter of opinions but I think this has been vautour target all along and his class will win the race.
 
"“I think the Ryanair Chase is probably the weakest race of the Festival, and I would dearly love Vautour to run because I wouldn’t have to choose between him and Djakadam in the Gold Cup,” Walsh told host Oli Bell.

which confirms what i think about Vautour..possible 180+ hoss at 2m5f...but when stretching him out..its less to the degree that the jock is having to decide whether to ride him or a hoss ohr rated 170

if Vautour was deemed as good at further in Rubys mind..he wouldn't have to make a decison between a OHR 170 hoss or V..it would be automatic..the fact he is even making a choice casts doubts..imo


Lets put it in perspective..if Ruby had had a choice when with Nicholls..KS or Djakadam..would he have even mentioned the word choice..would have been automatic imo
 
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Gold Cuppin

Ya for sure & he's on record in his Paddy Power blog as saying they wont know if he'll stay for sure unless they actually try it so all this If Ruby thinks it it must be true malarkey is irrelevant.

He doesn't know himself!! Kauto star had the same doubts after his 1st KG win but Kauto was dominating horses around Kempton and proved he was a freak when he won 2 Gold cups after 2 tingle creeks. He could pick it up from where Vautour did in the KG but keep pouring it on right to the line, Vautour has demonstrated in his only go he can't manage that. Vautour is no Kauto Star.

Fact remains, and it can be backed up by figures, he just about stayed the KG trip. He was in bother a nice bit out. Ridden differently or not he's still going to have to cover more ground in the Gold Cup with an uphill finish so I can't for the life of me understand how he's going to manage it!!

I am strongly considering place laying him. You've fellas talking here about others not being able to see where he went when he makes his move! The Gold Cup is not about one sudden burst of speed. It's about who can obtain a relentless gallop for the longest time. See Bobs Worth, Lord Windemere, Long Run, Synchronised, Coneygree. The list is endless, all dour stayers who just galloped and galloped, and then galloped some more to the line!! Even On His Own nearly got there in '14 and was there 2 out last year as an 11 year old!! There are far more stamina laden horses than Vautour in the field with the two Dons, Djackadam, Smad place etc who this type of race suits a lot more than a speed horse.

Anyone have a price on Vautour not to place out of interest?


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Gold Cuppin

The horse I fear is actually Djackadam. Why? Because as a 6 year old last year to do what he did was exceptional. It's not ideal however coming here on the back of a nasty fall and he's fallen more times here than he stood up. If he was coming here on the back of a win or completion I'd be very worried but stood in his box for 2 weeks after & not let gallop around Leopardstown incase some of the stitches left in would come loose is not ideal preparation. They are going to struggle to get enough work into him I believe and if they do too much he wont be 100%.


Don Cossack, on course form here I wouldn't touch him. Go back through his RSA form here or Ryanair run and you'll see 'pecked on landing' or 'mistake' a regular comment beside his race progress. A big bulky framed horse, I just dont think he enjoys trying to get that big frame up & down the undulations. He'll have every chance of getting left behind if & when these errors surface again tomorrow two weeks. The other Don is, touch wood, twice the jumper his namesake is.

Cue Card is an old fav of mine. I backed him for the King George & again immediately after it for the GC ante post. Then I saw the sectionals and was a tad disappointed. Tizzard made the point that he raced lazily throughout and was almost asleep. I think he may fill a place but fairly certain his stamina will not be enough to get him home in front.




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EC1 said:
i have a question for people who believe that Vautour will stay based on the KG

How can he beat CC?..because if you take the view that both proved stamina in the KG..then surely CC is the better stayer. If you showed that race to someone and asked them which of the first two would win with just another furlong added at Kempton..most would say CC as he just gets up on the line..so you would assume give another furlong he would have been 2 or 3 lengths up
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The King George is absolutely as good as Cue Card is - the height of his achievable form, if you will. At his age and with his experience, he will not improve again - even returned to Cheltenham.

Vautour has effectively matched that in his second open chase, on a track that wasn't mean to suit. Returned to Cheltenham, I expect a significant amount of further improvement on his King George effort. It is for these reasons, that he will beat Cue Card, and beat him comfortably.
 
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Ardross said:
Alarming to note from previews thread that swedish chief reports that Ruby said he was bending the ears off Mullins and Ricci trying to get them to run Vautour in the Ryanair - seems his reported belief he will stay not as strong as we might have thought .
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As posted later in that thread, Walsh tweeted it was said in jest.........it was only latched-onto by those wishing the Vautour threat away.......which ain't going to happen.
 
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Grasshopper said:
The King George is absolutely as good as Cue Card is - the height of his achievable form, if you will. At his age and with his experience, he will not improve again - even returned to Cheltenham.

Vautour has effectively matched that in his second open chase, on a track that wasn't mean to suit. Returned to Cheltenham, I expect a significant amount of further improvement on his King George effort. It is for these reasons, that he will beat Cue Card, and beat him comfortably.
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I agree - Cue Card will be fighting for 4th with the Italian Parrot.
 
EC1 said:
"“I think the Ryanair Chase is probably the weakest race of the Festival, and I would dearly love Vautour to run because I wouldn’t have to choose between him and Djakadam in the Gold Cup,” Walsh told host Oli Bell.

which confirms what i think about Vautour..possible 180+ hoss at 2m5f...but when stretching him out..its less to the degree that the jock is having to decide whether to ride him or a hoss ohr rated 170

if Vautour was deemed as good at further in Rubys mind..he wouldn't have to make a decison between a OHR 170 hoss or V..it would be automatic..the fact he is even making a choice casts doubts..imo


Lets put it in perspective..if Ruby had had a choice when with Nicholls..KS or Djakadam..would he have even mentioned the word choice..would have been automatic imo
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No, EC1....lets really put it in perspective.

You are making a straw-man argument out of comments made at a Cheltenham preview meeting - which count for nothing more than entertaining a paying audience. He would rather ride two winners than one, which is hardly a shocker. Extrapolating that to suggest it means he has no confidence in Vautour's Gold Cup prospects is nonsense - and conveniently forgets his other comment that he fancied the Vautour/Djakadam reverse-forecast.......something which should be ignored just as readily.

What is said at Previews should be seen for what it is. And it isn't a format where a jockey like Wlash is going to tell the public anything of note.
 
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Grasshopper said:
The King George is absolutely as good as Cue Card is - the height of his achievable form, if you will. At his age and with his experience, he will not improve again - even returned to Cheltenham.

Vautour has effectively matched that in his second open chase, on a track that wasn't mean to suit. Returned to Cheltenham, I expect a significant amount of further improvement on his King George effort. It is for these reasons, that he will beat Cue Card, and beat him comfortably.
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Not forgetting, of course, Cue Card was ridden to get the trip and never featured until past halfway, whereas Vautour was either leading, or challenging for it, the whole of the way.
 
But going back on the KG thread here the other day most of you on Vautour all wanted Ruby to race prominently and ride him like a Gold Cup horse. Prove his stamina etc!! He did that and just about got 3m at Kempton. He was in trouble 2 out in fact.

Do you reckon that by holding him up it'll give him more of a chance of getting that extra 2.5f? He's still going to have to go at the pace set by whoever, be it SP, RTR, OHO which will be fairly generous and still get home.

If the GC trip was over 3m I could see it helping somewhat but the extra 2.5f uphill!!!!


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Speaking only for myself, I don't recollect stating a preference as to how I'd like Vautour ridden. I think I stated I expected them to ride him like a stayer - which is pretty-much what they did. Earlier in this particular thread, I said I expected them to ride Vautour like a non-stayer in the Gold Cup itself - either dictating the pace from the front, or if that wasn't going to optimise his chance (e.g. something like Smad Place piled it on), I expected them to hold him up, to get the trip.

As I've previously stated here, I think Vautour will have the race won, before stamina ever becomes an issue. He will have too much class for his opponents - in the Best Mate/Kauto Star mould.

Edit: You are dreaming, KA - Vautour was in trouble about 4 feet from the line, and no earlier. ;)
 
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