Breeding and Bloodstock Sales
- Thread starter Miesque
- Start date
G-G
Senior Jockey
Yes real shame for them and her. Suggested they maybe try an AI of another breed to give the chance to be a mum.
trudij
Senior Jockey
I’m not sure she’d be able to even do that though - it’s the producing eggs and being able to take anything to term that would most likely be an issue. I can’t remember Id embryo transfer is an option for racehorses - bearing in mind how crazy the rule is about AI, I can’t imagine they would like ET either but I should think that would be her best chance of breeding anything at all. And that’s assuming she’s capable of ovulating and has viable follicles.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
G-G
Senior Jockey
Sorry I meant implanted embryo not AI. Plenty of demand for mares to have foals this way. A lot of polo ponies born that way in this country. Would give her a chance to be a mum to someone.
edgt
Senior Jockey
No high tech stuff allowed in thoroughbred world as of yet.( not officially anyway)
A mare her age with under developed ovaries makes one wonder; either a genetic problem XO chromosome or possible steroid treatment as a youngster or some such.
I remember in college we were told of such a mare , very successful racemare in the 80s who had the genetic abnormality; no names of course alas !
Just wonder if such benefit unfairly from fillies' allowance when racing .
They would have noticed her not coming in season when in training perhaps?
A mare her age with under developed ovaries makes one wonder; either a genetic problem XO chromosome or possible steroid treatment as a youngster or some such.
I remember in college we were told of such a mare , very successful racemare in the 80s who had the genetic abnormality; no names of course alas !
Just wonder if such benefit unfairly from fillies' allowance when racing .
They would have noticed her not coming in season when in training perhaps?
trudij
Senior Jockey
I didn’t think it was yet, AI is still banned ( ridiculously IMO) so I didn’t think they’d allow something as exciting as ET !!
You’d think they’d notice over time wouldn’t you, though I suppose there are plenty of mares who don’t show, so possibly not. I half wonder if they will put her back into training - she’s had plenty of time for the injury to recover by now....
whatever they do she certainly won’t lack for care, her owners clearly adore her [emoji846]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
jinnyj
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2004
- Messages
- 4,569
Yes I cannot understand why they can’t allow AI in this modern era of DNA testing which was supposedly the reason before. For me it would be kinder on the mares not having to travel to be covered (often not long after they have foaled) with a foal in tow which can be stressful and also eliminate things like Equine Herpes. But then again it would mean the studs wouldn’t get their fairly lucrative “keep fees”
trudij
Senior Jockey
Think of the possibilities for stallions though as well - you could go to any stallion anywhere and get the semen within a few days... it just opens up such possibilities
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
trudij
Senior Jockey
While I’m in here, anyone want to buy an Elite NH broodmare? In foal to Telescope, due at the end of April. Currently living in Shropshire .
( and I’m being serious, so if anyone does - PM me!)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
( and I’m being serious, so if anyone does - PM me!)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited:
G-G
Senior Jockey
I'm not suggesting a TB embryo for her, I know that's not allowed. Plenty of surrogate mares are needed for other breeds, if they wanted to have the experience being a mum at least once , they could do that.
With DNA I don't know what they don't allow A1 for TBs either. Yes there could be a danger of the market being flooded with a particular blood line, but there's a bit of that now with SW/Galileo offspring, but there could probably be limits put in for stallions no longer naturally covering for whatever reason, and that could work. Maybe.
With DNA I don't know what they don't allow A1 for TBs either. Yes there could be a danger of the market being flooded with a particular blood line, but there's a bit of that now with SW/Galileo offspring, but there could probably be limits put in for stallions no longer naturally covering for whatever reason, and that could work. Maybe.
granger
Senior Jockey
Apple's Jade and her Walk In The Park filly
granger
Senior Jockey
Many a marble went into this one
G-G
Senior Jockey
A friend who does a lot of research into pedigrees, and as helped out with some race horse books in his time, sent me this today: we were actually talking about a question someone wanted to ask a current jockey about would Enable have won the Derby...anyway, I think this is fascinating about an amazing mare:
SCEPTRE (1899 by Persimmon – Ornament by Bend Or)
Foaled in 1899, and bred by the Duke Of Westminster, Sceptre’s pedigree combined the best bloodlines of the late 19th Century
She was by Persimmon, winner of the Derby, St Leger, Eclipse and Ascot God Cup for the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) and Champion Sire four times. He in turn was by St Simon, one of the two best horses of the 19th Century and winner of all his nine races, including the Ascot Gold Cup by 20 lengths, and Champion Sire nine times. He could not run in the Derby because his owner had died, and in those days when this happened all future entries for a horse were cancelled.
Sceptre’s dam, Ornament, was well beaten on her only racecourse appearance, but was a full-sister to Ormonde, who along with St Simon was the greatest horse of the 19th Century. Ormonde was unbeaten in all 16 starts, including the 2000 Guineas, Derby and St Leger.Sceptre came up for sale as a yearling.
The year Sceptre was foaled the Duke of Westminster died, and the following summer all his yearlings came up for auction at Newmarket. The Duke’s son was determined to Sceptre, and he would have done but for the determination of one man, Bob Sievier.
Bob Sievier was a notorious gambler, whose bank balance see-sawed between poor, rich and then poor again. He was also owner and editor of the racing paper, “The Winning Post”, a cross between the “Sporting Life” and “Private Eye”. At the time of the sale Sievier’s bank balance was healthy, and he is reported to have won thousands earlier in the year when Sir Geoffrey had won the Lincolnshire Handicap and have capital exceeding £100,000. Before leaving for the sale he visited his bank and drew out twenty £1,000 Bank Of England notes and took them to Newmarket with him. Siever opened the bidding for Sceptre at 5,000 guineas and the price rose to 10,000 guineas before Sievier secured the filly for a then record price. Prior to that day the record price for a yearling had been 6,000 guineas.
SCEPTRE’S RACE RECORD
1901
02/06/01 Won Woodcote Stakes (6f.)
30/06/01 Won July Stakes (5½ f.)
08/09/01 3rd Champagne Stakes
During 1901 Sceptre was trained by Charles Morton, but at the end of the year Charles Morton became private trainer to Jack Joel, and so Sievier decided, although he had little experience, would have a go at training her himself.
1902
18/03/02 2nd Lincolnshire Handicap (8f.) (beaten a head carrying just 6st.7lb.)
30/04/02 Won 2000 Guineas (8f.)
02/05/02Won 1000 Guineas (8f.)
04/06/02 4th Derby (12f.)
06/06/02 Won Oaks (12f.)
14/06/02 Unplaced Grand Prix de Paris (15f.)
18/06/02 5th Coronation Stakes (8f.)
19/06/02 Won St. James’s Palace Stakes (8f)
31/07/02 2nd Sussex Stakes (8f.)
01/08/02 Won Nassau Stakes (12f.)
10/09/02 Won St. Leger (14f.)
12/09/02 2nd Park Hill Stakes (14f.)
Trained by Sievier, Scedptre was not race fit when she was beaten in the Lincoln Her rider had been was given contradictory orders by Sievier’s assistant trainer to ride her prominently. The latter was promptly sacked by Sievier. Sceptre improved rapidly over the next few weeks and impressed on the gallops prior to the 2000 Guineas. Unfortunately for Sievier this was one of the times when his bank balance was at a low ebb, and he was unable to back her when she won the 2000 Guineas and followed this up two days later by taking the 1000 Guineas.
This earned him £10,500 in prize money, so with money in his pocket Sievier backed Sceptre for the Derby to win him £33,000. However, she was slowly away at Epsom and her inexperienced rider Randall, who had only recently turned professional, rode her hard up the steep ascent from the start to make up lost ground. She was a spent force in the straight, but still managed to hold on for fourth. None the worst, she was back on the course two days later to win the Oaks by three lengths.
From Epsom, Sceptre went over to Paris for the Grand Prix, but finished unplaced, after being ridden wide throughout, for fear of being boxed in by the French jockeys.
Hurried back to England she reappeared four days later at Royal Ascot to finish fifth in the Coronation Stakes, and followed this up the next day by taking the St James’s Palace Stakes.
Next came appearances on consecutive days at Goodwood, when she followed up a second in the Sussex Stakes with victory in the Nassau Stakes.
Her final two appearances of 1902 came within two days, being surprisingly beaten in the Park Hill Stakes, after winning her fourth classic of the season, the St Leger.
1903
24/03/03 5th Lincolnshire Handicap (6f.)
19/06/03 Won Hardwicke Stakes (12f.)
17/07/03 2nd Eclipse Stakes (10f.) beaten a neck
01/10/03 Won Jockey Club Stakes (14f.)
10/10/03 Won Duke Of York Handicap (10f.) conceding between 21lb. & 44lb. to rest of field
13/10/03 Won Champion Stakes (10f.)
27/10/03 Won Limekiln Stakes (10f.)
At the start of 1903 Sievier’s financial position was again becoming precarious, when he had a large bet on Sceptre for the Lincolnshire Handicap. Sceptre only finished fifth. Two days later it was announced that she was for sale and withing twenty-four hours she became the property of Mr. William Bass for £25,000. Sceptre now went to Manton to be trained by Alec Traylor and she won all her remaining races that season, except when second in a vintage renewal of the Eclipse Stakes. There were only five runners, but as well as Sceptre, the field included Ard Patrick (winner of the 1902 Derby) and Rock Sand (winner of the 1903 2000 Guineas and Derby and later St. Leger). In the race Ard Patrick headed Sceptre near to line to score by a neck, with Rock Sand a further three lengths back in third.
After a break, Sceptre was now reaching the peak of her powers, and in the Jockey Club Stakes she was reopposed by the recent St. Leger winner Rock Sand, who she beat by four lengths conceding 15 pounds.
She was next set to carry 9st.4lb. in the Duke Of York Handicap, and won by a head and three lengths from Happy Slave and Glass Jug (second to her in the Oak) conceding them 40 lbs. and 26 lbs. respectively, The 1903 1000 winner Our Lassie was unplaced carrying just 7st. 11lb.
She finished the season strolling home in the Champion and Limekiln Stakes by 10 lengths and 8 lengths respectively.
1904
02/06/04 2nd Coronation Cup (12f.)
16/06/04 3rd Ascot Gold Cup (20f.)
17/06/04 3rd Hardwicke Stakes (12f.)
Kept in training at five, Sceptre was never able to reproduce her best form.
Sceptre at Stud
At stud Sceptre produced eight foals (seven fillies and one colt) before her death in 1926. Among them were four winners, the best being her first two foals, namely Maid Of The Mist (winner of Cheveley Park and Nassau Stakes) and Maid Of Corinth (winner of Cheveley Park Stakes).
Direct descendant in female line of Sceptre have won all five English Classic, viz.
2000 Guineas – Craig An Eran (1921), Taboun (1959)
1000 Guineas – Full Dress II (1969), One In A Million (1979)
Derby – Relko (1963)
Oaks – Sunny Jane (1917)
St.Leger – Commanche Run (1984
SCEPTRE (1899 by Persimmon – Ornament by Bend Or)
Foaled in 1899, and bred by the Duke Of Westminster, Sceptre’s pedigree combined the best bloodlines of the late 19th Century
She was by Persimmon, winner of the Derby, St Leger, Eclipse and Ascot God Cup for the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) and Champion Sire four times. He in turn was by St Simon, one of the two best horses of the 19th Century and winner of all his nine races, including the Ascot Gold Cup by 20 lengths, and Champion Sire nine times. He could not run in the Derby because his owner had died, and in those days when this happened all future entries for a horse were cancelled.
Sceptre’s dam, Ornament, was well beaten on her only racecourse appearance, but was a full-sister to Ormonde, who along with St Simon was the greatest horse of the 19th Century. Ormonde was unbeaten in all 16 starts, including the 2000 Guineas, Derby and St Leger.Sceptre came up for sale as a yearling.
The year Sceptre was foaled the Duke of Westminster died, and the following summer all his yearlings came up for auction at Newmarket. The Duke’s son was determined to Sceptre, and he would have done but for the determination of one man, Bob Sievier.
Bob Sievier was a notorious gambler, whose bank balance see-sawed between poor, rich and then poor again. He was also owner and editor of the racing paper, “The Winning Post”, a cross between the “Sporting Life” and “Private Eye”. At the time of the sale Sievier’s bank balance was healthy, and he is reported to have won thousands earlier in the year when Sir Geoffrey had won the Lincolnshire Handicap and have capital exceeding £100,000. Before leaving for the sale he visited his bank and drew out twenty £1,000 Bank Of England notes and took them to Newmarket with him. Siever opened the bidding for Sceptre at 5,000 guineas and the price rose to 10,000 guineas before Sievier secured the filly for a then record price. Prior to that day the record price for a yearling had been 6,000 guineas.
SCEPTRE’S RACE RECORD
1901
02/06/01 Won Woodcote Stakes (6f.)
30/06/01 Won July Stakes (5½ f.)
08/09/01 3rd Champagne Stakes
During 1901 Sceptre was trained by Charles Morton, but at the end of the year Charles Morton became private trainer to Jack Joel, and so Sievier decided, although he had little experience, would have a go at training her himself.
1902
18/03/02 2nd Lincolnshire Handicap (8f.) (beaten a head carrying just 6st.7lb.)
30/04/02 Won 2000 Guineas (8f.)
02/05/02Won 1000 Guineas (8f.)
04/06/02 4th Derby (12f.)
06/06/02 Won Oaks (12f.)
14/06/02 Unplaced Grand Prix de Paris (15f.)
18/06/02 5th Coronation Stakes (8f.)
19/06/02 Won St. James’s Palace Stakes (8f)
31/07/02 2nd Sussex Stakes (8f.)
01/08/02 Won Nassau Stakes (12f.)
10/09/02 Won St. Leger (14f.)
12/09/02 2nd Park Hill Stakes (14f.)
Trained by Sievier, Scedptre was not race fit when she was beaten in the Lincoln Her rider had been was given contradictory orders by Sievier’s assistant trainer to ride her prominently. The latter was promptly sacked by Sievier. Sceptre improved rapidly over the next few weeks and impressed on the gallops prior to the 2000 Guineas. Unfortunately for Sievier this was one of the times when his bank balance was at a low ebb, and he was unable to back her when she won the 2000 Guineas and followed this up two days later by taking the 1000 Guineas.
This earned him £10,500 in prize money, so with money in his pocket Sievier backed Sceptre for the Derby to win him £33,000. However, she was slowly away at Epsom and her inexperienced rider Randall, who had only recently turned professional, rode her hard up the steep ascent from the start to make up lost ground. She was a spent force in the straight, but still managed to hold on for fourth. None the worst, she was back on the course two days later to win the Oaks by three lengths.
From Epsom, Sceptre went over to Paris for the Grand Prix, but finished unplaced, after being ridden wide throughout, for fear of being boxed in by the French jockeys.
Hurried back to England she reappeared four days later at Royal Ascot to finish fifth in the Coronation Stakes, and followed this up the next day by taking the St James’s Palace Stakes.
Next came appearances on consecutive days at Goodwood, when she followed up a second in the Sussex Stakes with victory in the Nassau Stakes.
Her final two appearances of 1902 came within two days, being surprisingly beaten in the Park Hill Stakes, after winning her fourth classic of the season, the St Leger.
1903
24/03/03 5th Lincolnshire Handicap (6f.)
19/06/03 Won Hardwicke Stakes (12f.)
17/07/03 2nd Eclipse Stakes (10f.) beaten a neck
01/10/03 Won Jockey Club Stakes (14f.)
10/10/03 Won Duke Of York Handicap (10f.) conceding between 21lb. & 44lb. to rest of field
13/10/03 Won Champion Stakes (10f.)
27/10/03 Won Limekiln Stakes (10f.)
At the start of 1903 Sievier’s financial position was again becoming precarious, when he had a large bet on Sceptre for the Lincolnshire Handicap. Sceptre only finished fifth. Two days later it was announced that she was for sale and withing twenty-four hours she became the property of Mr. William Bass for £25,000. Sceptre now went to Manton to be trained by Alec Traylor and she won all her remaining races that season, except when second in a vintage renewal of the Eclipse Stakes. There were only five runners, but as well as Sceptre, the field included Ard Patrick (winner of the 1902 Derby) and Rock Sand (winner of the 1903 2000 Guineas and Derby and later St. Leger). In the race Ard Patrick headed Sceptre near to line to score by a neck, with Rock Sand a further three lengths back in third.
After a break, Sceptre was now reaching the peak of her powers, and in the Jockey Club Stakes she was reopposed by the recent St. Leger winner Rock Sand, who she beat by four lengths conceding 15 pounds.
She was next set to carry 9st.4lb. in the Duke Of York Handicap, and won by a head and three lengths from Happy Slave and Glass Jug (second to her in the Oak) conceding them 40 lbs. and 26 lbs. respectively, The 1903 1000 winner Our Lassie was unplaced carrying just 7st. 11lb.
She finished the season strolling home in the Champion and Limekiln Stakes by 10 lengths and 8 lengths respectively.
1904
02/06/04 2nd Coronation Cup (12f.)
16/06/04 3rd Ascot Gold Cup (20f.)
17/06/04 3rd Hardwicke Stakes (12f.)
Kept in training at five, Sceptre was never able to reproduce her best form.
Sceptre at Stud
At stud Sceptre produced eight foals (seven fillies and one colt) before her death in 1926. Among them were four winners, the best being her first two foals, namely Maid Of The Mist (winner of Cheveley Park and Nassau Stakes) and Maid Of Corinth (winner of Cheveley Park Stakes).
Direct descendant in female line of Sceptre have won all five English Classic, viz.
2000 Guineas – Craig An Eran (1921), Taboun (1959)
1000 Guineas – Full Dress II (1969), One In A Million (1979)
Derby – Relko (1963)
Oaks – Sunny Jane (1917)
St.Leger – Commanche Run (1984
edgt
Senior Jockey
My father, whose anniversary is this weekend , regaled me with tales of Sceptre and Bob Siever, only if to discourage me from gambling.
"When you lose money gambling despite owning the best filly ever, how can anyone else expect to make it pay ?"he used to say.
I did not realise she bred two Cheveley Park Stakes winners, I always thought only Balidaress ( Desirable/ Park Appeal) held that claim to fame.
Imagine going for a touch in a handicap before a Classic campaign now.
"When you lose money gambling despite owning the best filly ever, how can anyone else expect to make it pay ?"he used to say.
I did not realise she bred two Cheveley Park Stakes winners, I always thought only Balidaress ( Desirable/ Park Appeal) held that claim to fame.
Imagine going for a touch in a handicap before a Classic campaign now.
granger
Senior Jockey
If not a book Ed, maybe you'll give us a podcast?
G-G
Senior Jockey
Wise words! Aside from anything else , getting back from France and running at Ascot within that kind of time frame? I was wondering aside from the boat obviously, but how did they transport horses back then? Amazing story.
Nigel, the friend, if really into research and pedigrees, has amazing knowledge. He gave me a copy of a book recently that he contributed to called Great Thoroughbred Sires of the World. The publishers contacted multiple people throughout the World and asked them to contribute 500 words about stallions, they were sent a list to chose from and could submit as many as they wanted. Nigel's contributions are Blandford, Foxhunter, Gold Bridge, Panorama, Solario, Son-In-Law, Sundridge and Swynford. Some fabulous pictures in the book also. The book took 10 years to reach publication.
G-G
Senior Jockey
Here she is. Sceptre 
Eleanora Duse
Conditional
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2013
- Messages
- 888
The 2nd Lord Astor created his stud around 3 fillies/mares and kept with only these three families up until he passed on all his bloodstock to two of his sons. One of these was Maid in the Mist, whom he purchased from the Bass family and was a daughter of Sceptre. She directly bred him a 2000G and Oaks winner, but she and her daughters supplied him with 4 of the 5 Derby 2nds he had (he famously never won the Derby). If a couple of those had won Sceptre's effect would have been even greater.
Of course she was also the ancestor of one of the finest NH sires seen in the last 50 years, Deep Run. He was a half-brother to One in a Million's dam.
Of course she was also the ancestor of one of the finest NH sires seen in the last 50 years, Deep Run. He was a half-brother to One in a Million's dam.
Last edited:
chroniclandlord
Senior Jockey
I was flicking through the online catalogue for the upcoming Goffs uk horses in training sale and two entries caught my eye, Trevelyn's Corn and Downtown Getaway.
At the December 2017 at Tattersalls Cheltenham they were the two sale toppers at £400k & £350k respectively. Three and a half years later with earnings of 4k & 15k in the meantime, they are back in the sale ring.
I remember watching Trevelyn's Corn win a maiden hurdle and thinking that he was going to be a really good horse but he seems to have had a lot of issues since.
At the December 2017 at Tattersalls Cheltenham they were the two sale toppers at £400k & £350k respectively. Three and a half years later with earnings of 4k & 15k in the meantime, they are back in the sale ring.
I remember watching Trevelyn's Corn win a maiden hurdle and thinking that he was going to be a really good horse but he seems to have had a lot of issues since.
chroniclandlord
Senior Jockey
Other names I recognised in the catalogue were
Robin des Foret, Low Sun, Sayo, Tiger Tap Tap, Koshari and Scarpeta from Closutton. (Koshari's win on Saturday might have redeemed him from a place on the boat).
Mr Whittiker and Glen Forsa from Channon's yard
Romain de Senam from the Skelton stable
Pym from Nicky Henderson's
and poor old Outlander going through the ring again at 13.
Robin des Foret, Low Sun, Sayo, Tiger Tap Tap, Koshari and Scarpeta from Closutton. (Koshari's win on Saturday might have redeemed him from a place on the boat).
Mr Whittiker and Glen Forsa from Channon's yard
Romain de Senam from the Skelton stable
Pym from Nicky Henderson's
and poor old Outlander going through the ring again at 13.
G-G
Senior Jockey
Oh bless him! Why don't they just advertise him to a good home? When I win the lottery................
edgt
Senior Jockey
Gentle Jim Bolger does it again.
Takes back Dawn Approach to his Redmondstown Stud the season he sires a Guineas winner.
Had the dam line since 1989, a filly Saviour he trained for Tom Gentry to win at Mallow, Dundalk and Killarney.
Tom sold her to Jim not rating the form of these country tracks, or was Jim underachieving with this well named filly ?
Whatever about Poetic Flare's merits as a 2000 Gns winner we should never under rate his breeder/owner/trainer.
P W Sleator was nicknamed "Wisdom" so should J S Bolger be named "Savvy" in honour of his middle initial and modus operandi.
Takes back Dawn Approach to his Redmondstown Stud the season he sires a Guineas winner.
Had the dam line since 1989, a filly Saviour he trained for Tom Gentry to win at Mallow, Dundalk and Killarney.
Tom sold her to Jim not rating the form of these country tracks, or was Jim underachieving with this well named filly ?
Whatever about Poetic Flare's merits as a 2000 Gns winner we should never under rate his breeder/owner/trainer.
P W Sleator was nicknamed "Wisdom" so should J S Bolger be named "Savvy" in honour of his middle initial and modus operandi.
G-G
Senior Jockey
Some very good business done at Donny the last 4 days, some really nice horses going through the ring. Hold The Note was absolutely stunning even on the cam view. Outlander went for 4k to Marcus Collie, so hopefully has a good home.
trudij
Senior Jockey
Logician is off to Shade Oak Stud for next season
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk