Brexit

Brexit, Stay or Leave.

  • Stay

    Votes: 28 59.6%

  • Leave

    Votes: 19 40.4%
  • Total voters
    47
Grasshopper said:
Straw poll.

Has anyone here who voted Leave, had any cause to regret their decision, given the fallout.
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I didn't vote, obviously, but I am beginning to slide from welcoming the result to regretting it.
I don't think I fully comprehended the consequences or foresaw the (hopefully short-term) chaos. I have not liked what I have seen in the immediate post-Referendum couple of days.
Don't slate me off, please.
 
Why would I slate you off, Ice?

Even if someone did vote Leave, and confessed to regret, I ask out of academic interest (as to the reasons why), rather than to expose anyone as a chump.
 
Grasshopper said:
Straw poll.

Has anyone here who voted Leave, had any cause to regret their decision, given the fallout. Equally, is there anyone who voted Remain, who is now inclined to the other option, given the EU seems destined to play hard-ball on negotiations?

I'm expecting two big-fat zero's as the final tally, but figured I'd ask the question anyway.
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no, how can anyone have a firm opinion until at least two years down the line? . but I now do believe that the referendum was a bad idea. I wasn't entirely keen anyway. In many respects if a voter wanted to leave then they should elect the relevant party campaigning on that very issue, (as they are doing so across the continent) . Also it then becomes a voters decision that isn't made in isolation, which is the way it should be.

the second point is an unfounded assumption. Some in the eu are making noises but that's all. Others most certainly aren't including the most powerful politiican by far. Just your wishful thinking

its a big decision to square on a very small margin. More than a fair bet that it would,d be reversed tomorrow if repeated. Also you can see why that when it comes to major structural decisions many organisations require and seek stronger majorities. All that can be argued either way but the other very very striking issue is that so many voters were very undecided. Despite sneering YouTube videos.

the other angle is that there might have been a case of "wait and see". See if the whole mess can look at itself and reform over a given period of time, but I feel that is beyond its capabilities and with no democratic mandate, it simply isn't under any pressure to do so.
 
Warbler said:
One of the more controversial allegations made on this thread is that the English are "stupid". Now I'm firmly of the belief that the GCSE has a lot to answer for, but this southerner is going viral at the moment as she provides a salutary lesson in the perils of democracy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li7wNTkL-dY
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its quite a common theme on the forum that the oiks shouldn't be allowed their say isn't it?
 
My last expressed summary on the subject, posted in the evening of the night before, was this

Warbler said:
I'm still up in the air incidentally regarding my intent. In fact I'm considering a third option of abstention, as I've rarely been outside 52/48 for both sides
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Spoilt paper in the end. I was confliced by too many different things pulling me in both directions and couldn't reconcile them. I always felt that is was a stupid referendum to hold, and that our elected leaders should have accepted the responsibility of resolving this themselves rather than entrusting it to the whims of a partially informed electorate who would always be vulnerable to short term sentiment. Ultimately every view I held was cancelled out by another one on the other side. I just couldn't solve it to the level of satisfaction I wanted. Too complicated, but I confess that the result does feel instinctively wrong.

I had also resolved to do the opposite to Clive (I was scraping the barrell by now in looking for proxies that might point me in the right direction) but I was mindful of how many times he advocates bad foreign policy decisions, and I kind of figured that whatever he said he'd do, the opposite was probably the right thing to do (that was the reason I asked him if he'd changed his view!). Having said that, he seemed to indicate ambiguity and was perhaps trolling the leave position? I also looked up William Hague's record as he's another reliable negative predictor if in doubt

I'm not so sure however that we won't find some kind of fudge yet. Euro politics has a history of it

I should also say that the now oft reported emotion that a lot of 'Bregret' voters are reporting is one I went through too. I understand it (which is why I laughed when I first saw its emergence being reported). The difference is I ultimately backed out of it, but couldn't bring myself to blatantly vote against other self-interests. I was really left with nowhere to go
 
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clivex said:
no, how can anyone have a firm opinion until at least two years down the line? . but I now do believe that the referendum was a bad idea. I wasn't entirely keen anyway. In many respects if a voter wanted to leave then they should elect the relevant party campaigning on that very issue, (as they are doing so across the continent) . Also it then becomes a voters decision that isn't made in isolation, which is the way it should be.

the second point is an unfounded assumption. Some in the eu are making noises but that's all. Others most certainly aren't including the most powerful politiican by far. Just your wishful thinking

its a big decision to square on a very small margin. More than a fair bet that it would,d be reversed tomorrow if repeated. Also you can see why that when it comes to major structural decisions many organisations require and seek stronger majorities. All that can be argued either way but the other very very striking issue is that so many voters were very undecided. Despite sneering YouTube videos.

the other angle is that there might have been a case of "wait and see". See if the whole mess can look at itself and reform over a given period of time, but I feel that is beyond its capabilities and with no democratic mandate, it simply isn't under any pressure to do so.
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A refreshingly measured response from you, Clivex......apart, obviously, from the bit about my "wishful thinking", which is complete cobblers.
 
No I wasn't trolling... but emphasising shall we say.

My actual biggest fear was never once highlighted by the supposed remainers here. Not that I can recall anyway. In fact it was a little overlooked in the media too

there could have been an element of the kinnock vote for some over the past couple of weeks. The shouting off that "we want fatcher out!" But secretly praying that that ginger Welsh prat didn't end up running the country
 
clivex said:
In many respects if a voter wanted to leave then they should elect the relevant party campaigning on that very issue, (as they are doing so across the continent) . Also it then becomes a voters decision that isn't made in isolation, which is the way it should be.
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This is correct, and this is why I hold Cameron responsible

The UK, let us not forget, also has a uniqueish proxy for this in UKIP. The whole bloody party was founded on the EU rather than getting wrapped up with other issues that the Dutch, Danes, and French have with their anti union parties. Any politician with a modicum of strategic nouse had a ready made and easily defendable excuse to order. It makes Cameron's blunder even more unforgiveable. At the end of the day, he's been out manouevered by a dissident conservative club bore despite holding all the cards and all the advantages of state. Without UKIP, this would never have happened, and that is where the genesis for this begins

The referendum was a stupid idea, and if we believe the rumours, Osborne is supposed to have counselled him to this effect. Cameron however is cavalier, and prepared to do something that the traditional policy wonks wouldn't
 
This is what we will be leaving behind. Guess who


On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011

"When it becomes serious, you have to lie.

On EU monetary policy

"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

On British calls for a referendum over LisbonJul 2014h
“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”
On French referendum over EU constitution
“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”
On the introduction of the euro
"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."
On eurozone economic policy and democracy
“We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it”



 
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Yes its Juncker. I have to confess the last quote gave it away as its one of my favourites (it was also very true at the time) as it basically meant spending cuts and austerity across the union on the back of the soverign debt crisis as I recall
 
MArble

You are right. In future it could be seen that almost the biggest long term repercussion of this whole saga is the end of the Labour Party. The rebellion is powerful but it has to be remebered that corbyn is an idealogue who represents fanatics who would far rather have control of the oarty than actually influence the country. Summed up by the team around him

there is nothing in this world, except for Jews, that the far left of labour hate more than moderate and blairite labour.
 
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clivex said:
This is what we will be leaving behind. Guess who


On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011

"When it becomes serious, you have to lie.

On EU monetary policy

"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

On British calls for a referendum over LisbonJul 2014h
“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”
On French referendum over EU constitution
“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”
On the introduction of the euro
"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."
On eurozone economic policy and democracy
“We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it”
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And this is what you might get:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/the-eu-will-treat-britain-like-greece/
 
clivex said:
MArble

You are right. In future it could be seen that almost the biggest long term repercussion of this whole saga is the end of the Labour Party. The rebellion is powerful but it has to be remebered that corbyn is an idealogue who represents fanatics who would far rather have control of the oarty than actually influence the country. Summed up by the team around him

there is nothing in this world, except for Jews, that the far left of labour hate more than moderate and blairite labour.
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They need a leader to say and do whatever it takes to be a contender at an election now frankly.
The problem is the following....... in a massively divided country, a sort-of Indian type caste system........ any opposition leader is going to struggle to know what to "say or do" to have a chance of power.

Its like going on T.V, and having no idea of who you are aiming a message at. If you don't know who you are trying to win over, e.g. in what area they live, in what type of profession they're in, or what social class they are, you are likely to fail in your mission.

London seems to know where it stands although of course it has its own troubles like everywhere else, but the rest of the county is developing a kind of political schizophrenia
If a new leader can find a cure for this, or determine a narrative that will start to resonate to different groups of people outside London, but which doesn't alienate London, (a bit like Tony Blair did with New Labour branding), they'll be doing well.
 
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Grasshopper said:
Straw poll.

Has anyone here who voted Leave, had any cause to regret their decision, given the fallout. Equally, is there anyone who voted Remain, who is now inclined to the other option, given the EU seems destined to play hard-ball on negotiations?
Click to expand...

The fallout thus far is from the guts, which is only to be expected, rather than from the head and heart. I'm still a lukewarm Remainer and will stay so until this weekend's chunder is cleaned up and sobriety returns

Firstly I want to hear what plans Johnson et al have, if any, and working on the assumption that we - England and Wales at least - are out out definitely out I'm determined to try and receive their ideas positively

Is Parliament sitting this coming week?
 
Marble said:
They need a leader to say and do whatever it takes to be a contender at an election now frankly.
The problem is the following....... in a massively divided country, a sort-of Indian type caste system........ any opposition leader is going to struggle to know what to "say or do" to have a chance of power.

Its like going on T.V, and having no idea of who you are aiming a message at. If you don't know who you are trying to win over, e.g. in what area they live, in what type of profession they're in, or what social class they are, you are likely to fail in your mission.

London seems to know where it stands although of course it has its own troubles like everywhere else, but the rest of the county is developing a kind of political schizophrenia
If a new leader can find a cure for this, or determine a narrative that will start to resonate to different groups of people outside London, but which doesn't alienate London, (a bit like Tony Blair did with New Labour branding), they'll be doing well.
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more the south than London in truth and that was blairs great achievement. But it's simply not going to happen whilst the membership controls the party. The Tories have always known that the paid up members are far more right wing the electorate and kept them in their box. I suspect that the Tory membership know this very well themselves too
 
clivex said:
6/10 is "incredibly strong" bollocks. It required one voter in ten to switch and then it's even ffs

No spin at all. No one would ever deny that there is always a strong element of relatively neutral who will very towards the status quo.

What is it about this you can't grasp
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You come across as a complete and utter simplteton. You're smarter than your posts so why not take a 2day holiday, see some more of Europe, open up your eyes and realise you can't judge the world from behind your laptop.
 
Clive, the suggestion that there would be a ten-point-swing is clearly laughable. Play the sodding game.
 
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