Brexit

Brexit, Stay or Leave.

  • Stay

    Votes: 28 59.6%
  • Leave

    Votes: 19 40.4%

  • Total voters
    47
cant link it. Used up my quota on the dt

I've copied and pasted it here
:

I arrived in Brussels as the Daily Telegraph’s correspondent in early June, 2015. A fortnight later, Alexis Tsipras snubbed Brussels, and called a referendum on the third bailout that was designed to save the Eurozone from collapse.
The terms he was later given - €50bn of assets sold and a de facto control of economic policy surrendered - were so harsh they were later denounced as a "coup".
It taught me two things: that in the cause of its salvation the European Union can be profoundly flexible and exceptionally brutal, and that events can swiftly take a momentum that is hard to control.
Nothing of that experience gives me hope for the years that now await our country.

As far as Brussels is concerned, Britain has left.
At home on Friday morning, Britons were dumbstruck, agog at the result, or chuffed at having taught Brussels a lesson.
We now see street protests to overturn the result, internet petitions, suggestions that the UK or Scottish Parliament could revoke it or somehow make it go away. Westminster is occupied by Labour coups and Tory successions. Few seem to believe we are going.

Donald Tusk had warned he was ready for Brexit
In Brussels, they have been ready to say goodbye for a long time. Britain had been half-way out the door for forty years. David Cameron had announced this referendum in January 2013. He had won an election on the back of it, and many expected him to lose it. He, and they, repeated many times that it was final and binding. Patience is exhausted.
On Friday there was grave sadness, but no panic. The timetable for the talks was announced days before the vote. Martin Schulz, the president of the Parliament, spoke at dawn; Donald Tusk, the president of the Council, delivered a statement at 07.40 GMT. The founding members' foreign ministers met on Saturday; sherpas for the 27 remaining states will meet today to sketch out the months ahead.
Leaders have demanded Article 50 is activated immediately, to create certainty. Realistically, Mr Cameron has until Christmas.

Juncker warns UK referendum voters: out is out
Scotland is ready to quit, and diplomats are quite open to welcoming them into the EU club.
The treaties say that all Britain’s rights and obligations must remain for two years once Article 50 is activated. But Lord Hill, Britain’s commissioner, quit yesterday, and Downing Street said it had no plans to replace him, and Jean-Claude Juncker told Ukip MEPs to pack their bags. Is the legal order fragmenting? What other clauses in the treaties - which protect British expats on the continent, among other things - will now be ignored without consequence?
So the Brexit locomotive has left the station.

Can it be halted?
The European Council has offered a narrow window, saying that Britain has not left until Article 50 is activated formally by the Prime Minister, “if it is indeed the intention of the British government.”
Mr Cameron has left it to his successor to activate it. Mrs Merkel is in no hurry. Senior EU sources say they can wait until Christmas, but prevarication would trash Britain's credit-worthiness.
There are two problems. Firstly, to not activate Article 50 would be a rejection of democracy on a scale that could only be described as a coup, and would poison British public life for generations.
Secondly, a wave of movements demanding referendums on the terms of membership, given a huge boost by Mr Cameron, is tearing across Europe – in France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Italy, Hungary. Marine Le Pen could will run rampant in French elections in the spring.

Leaders anticipated that Boris Johnson would pursue a 'vote leave for a better deal' strategy, and ruled it out from February, precisely to prevent this scenario.
Jean-Claude Juncker said on Friday: “The repercussions of the British referendum could quickly put a stop to such crass rabble-rousing, as it should soon become clear that the UK was better off inside the EU.” Britain simply has to go, on bad terms, pour encourager les autres.

Britain has very few friends
In European eyes, David Cameron has had a remarkably generous lot: already out the euro, ever closer union, justice and home affairs obligations and Schengen, he was offered an enhanced deal that confirmed the perks of membership with scant obligations.
Yet he attacked Brussels for years for domestic advantage. Mr Cameron campaigned hard against his appointment. Stories about Mr Juncker's alleged drinking and the war record of his father, a conscript in the Wehrmacht, emerged. Yet Juncker offered an olive branch by giving Jonathan Hill the financial services portfolio Mr Cameron craved, in order to preserve the City. He is profoundly angry.
In his brutal negotiation, Alexis Tsipras had a number of cards to play. There was the “solidarity” that EU states are obliged to show each other, the pity and guilt at the plight of the Greek people who had been punished through no fault of their own, and the €83 billion of German taxpayer cash in Greek banks that risked going up in smoke. Their referendum had been hasty, the question unclear, Mr Juncker said; Greeks made plain they wanted to remain Europeans.

Countries which could also leave the EU:
No such goodwill exists for Britain, now an ex-member. Mr Johnson, the possible next prime minister, caused genuine and grave offence by likening the European project to the ambitions of Hitler. His declarations that Brexit will trigger events that unravel the entire project is, in effect, a declaration of war that must be met. Recall how inflexible European leaders were during Mr Cameron’s attempted renegotiation, when he put a gun to their heads and threatened to leave unless they submitted to his demands. He has fired that gun in the air, and locked himself out the room. Britain’s only leverage is how much damage a messy Brexit would inflict on European economies.

Time is not on our side
Once Article 50 is activated, events will move frighteningly fast. It took Mr Cameron seven full months to secure his meagre renegotiation. He will have just two years to get an exit deal covering every facet of British life, and a trade deal that will do the least harm to the fragile, debt-laden economy. The government is in disarray, the Labour party in meltdown, and the imminent exit of Scotland means it will be unclear with who or what, exactly, the EU is negotiating with. The French foreign minister yesterday implored Cameron to find a successor to take charge.

A ban issued from Downing Street on Brexit preparations – lest it boost the leave campaign – meant Britain’s most senior officials were permitted to “think” about a Brexit, but not allowed to write anything down.
Several take their guide from Flexcit, a book by a blogger Richard North that advocates a Norway-style deal as a half-way house under a “soft” exit. The crucial weeks ahead of polling day were spent in purdah, tending the garden.
The UK has next to no trade negotiators, and will need hundreds, to replicate the market access it currently has with 50 states around the world .
But the EU is ready. Talks in Jean-Claude Juncker’s in house think-tank began months ago. Foreign ministries have been preparing position papers. Lawyers are busy: Brussels has had 70 years of practice in writing treaties, signing trade talks, fixing accessions and bailouts, making and breaking nations.

We don't get to be Norway
The Leavers’ best hope – a Norway deal that means EEA status, retained rights for the City and immigration - is almost certainly off the table.
Britain has made clear it doesn’t want free movement – and so any deal on those grounds would be so impossibly fragile as to be a waste of time. Frankfurt and Paris would certainly like our banks. Mr Juncker is determined to undo Britain's attempt to create a multi-currency union, meaning clearing houses that trade in Euros and generate billions for the Exchequer will have to be domiciled in the Eurozone.
 
Clive, the suggestion that there would be a ten-point-swing is clearly laughable. Play the sodding game.

Thing is, there will probably be a 10 point swing, or double that even, but in the opposite direction. The fact Clive can see this speaks volumes.
 
What is David Miliband upto these days?

I can't help feeling if he'd beaten his brother in that leadership contest none of this would have happened because a) I don't think the Tories would have had an overall majority and b) even if they had he would have been a far more effective campaigner for remain than Corbyn was.
 
Clive, the suggestion that there would be a ten-point-swing is clearly laughable. Play the sodding game.

you know as well as I do that that was not the point. Don't **** around

it was your claim (and the bbcs ) that Scotland was overwhelmingly for brexit

40% were definitely not

it is clear that those ploughing ahead with independence had better think about not far off half your electorate
 
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Brendan. Will read later but we are a slightly more significant economy than greece

it baffles me that so many think this is a one way street. Haven't they ever negotiated anything in life?
 
What is David Miliband upto these days?

I can't help feeling if he'd beaten his brother in that leadership contest none of this would have happened because a) I don't think the Tories would have had an overall majority and b) even if they had he would have been a far more effective campaigner for remain than Corbyn was.


no overall majority I reckon too. I not entirely convinced dm is quite the messiah that some think but labour from the right of the party would certainly have done better than the ed and the present shambles. There were in fact polls to back this up
 
you know as well as I do that that was not the point. Don't **** around

it was your claim (and the bbcs ) that Scotland was overwhelmingly for brexit

40% were definitely not

it is clear that those ploughing ahead with independence had better think about not far off half your electorate

As drivel goes, this is right up there. 52/48 for Brexit is conclusive, and 62/38 is somehow open to question. Have a word with yourself.

Scottish Independence now polling at around 60% now. The game is lost. Get over it.
 
no overall majority I reckon too. I not entirely convinced dm is quite the messiah that some think but labour from the right of the party would certainly have done better than the ed and the present shambles. There were in fact polls to back this up

Those polls could easily have been subject to a 10-point swing.
 
Brendan. Will read later but we are a slightly more significant economy than greece

it baffles me that so many think this is a one way street. Haven't they ever negotiated anything in life?

Again, you don't get it. The UK are not the ones holding the cards here. If nothing is agreed by the end of the 2 year period following article 50 being invoked, UK reverts to WTO rules and tarifs everywhere. That fact alone means it is much, MUCH more in the UK's needs and interests to find a deal beforehand.
 
Thankfully, the decline of the Pound seems to be easing this morning; so also the stock market.
Maybe we don't have to jump into the lifeboats just yet.
 
How is that? Versus the euro, t was 1.30 pre Brexit, 1.23 at the end of Friday, and now 1.21. 2 percentage points already this morning.
 
ice brendan

Read this fellow

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/25/brexit-will-prove-to-be-the-great-escape/

its a relatively short piece and previously he has gone into more detail but I've read his books "trouble with europe" trouble with markets" and they are as clear headed and hard nosed as you would wish to see.

frankly this is the sort of voice you pay attention too rather than some twit moaning we "we don't have enough negotiators"
 
Not much to be "thankful" for though, is it Ice?

The point is that the markets are seemingly pretty sanguine about this. Compared to the hopes of the Private Frasers (scottish wasn't he? ) of this world. Markets are often very wrong anyway so its probably neither here nor there
 
Grass, I'm thankful that the dystopian picture that was painted by some Remainians last Friday hasn't come to pass.
 
Is it all that surprising though? Essentially, nothing very-much has changed other than the vote has happened, and we know it's in-the-post.

Now is not the time to judge how much damage will be done. Surely, the real measure of Brexit malignancy, can only be taken after we invoke Article 50, or when the terms of our exit deal with the EU are better understood - whichever happens sooner.
 
8% fall of the pound v the euro in effectively 24 hours trading isn't a dystopian picture for you?
 
Grass, I'm thankful that the dystopian picture that was painted by some Remainians last Friday hasn't come to pass yet.

Fixed that for you, Ice.

Also, please stop referring to me as a Remainian, or I'll have some illiterate Britain First arsehole trying to boot down my front-door.
 
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Is it all that surprising though? Essentially, nothing very-much has changed other than the vote has happened, and we know it's in-the-post.

Now is not the time to judge how much damage will be done. Surely, the real measure of Brexit malignancy, can only be taken after we invoke Article 50, or when the terms of our exit deal with the EU are better understood - whichever happens sooner.

But the markets are a predictor of the effects of doing so. The ftse is looking ahead. The clear consensus is that it the effect is marginal

Also the £ falling will boost many uk businesses trade and profits which the market will take account of. Swings and roundabouts

I think its a pretty fair bet there will be no surprises when the deal is completed.
 
If it was that simple, we would already have recovered to pre-Vote levels. We haven't. All that has happened is that the fall has stabilised.

Osborne's speech was surprisingly upbeat in the circumstances, I have to concede........though as Chancellor, he couldn't really do anything else.
 
Also the £ falling will boost many uk businesses trade and profits
A downside tho', Clive, is that the cost of raw material imports to make British products will rise considerably -- thus largely cancelling out much of the lower-Pound benefit for British exports.
 
A downside tho', Clive, is that the cost of raw material imports to make British products will rise considerably -- thus largely cancelling out much of the lower-Pound benefit for British exports.

Raw materials in are very minor element of the ultimate export ice. I think you would find its a far lesser% than you may imagine.
 
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