Brexit

Brexit, Stay or Leave.

  • Stay

    Votes: 28 59.6%
  • Leave

    Votes: 19 40.4%

  • Total voters
    47
Yes . I think just move on from the rubbish too

Two points. Minor one is that I don't believe at all its a certainty that Sanders would have beaten any other candidate. Secondly there is this trap that many want to believe that every city outside the M25 is Middlesbrough
 
Markets cited by some now as largely irrelevant (which I did indicate first here) after crowing about the falls

Ftse higher than pre vote now

You are cherry picking as per usual.

The FTSE 100 you quote is largely irrelevant. A very cogent piece in the DT yesterday explains why this is the case.
The FTSE 250 being a much more reliable indicator is still down more than 9% from it's Thursday close.
Of course you completely ignore the fact that sterling is still down double digits against the dollar.
The markets are still underwater as to the overall market cap losses incurred since Brexit.
 
I don't actually know how the figure that she's got it down is calculated, only that its been widely bandied about and hasn't been disputed, and that she's done it about 6 months. I'm guessing that she's done it through some hardline exclusion filtering and reinforced it with what must be 'not welcome' campaigns, as I can't imagine she could have achieved it passively. If Norway has reduced their immigration to something like 200 a month, I'm struggling to believe that Europeans aren't getting caught in this? It seems remarkably low at face value. There might be adminsitrative fudges involved of course concerning accountancy and the issuing of temporary visas as a opposed to residency permits? I don't know

I have little doubt that the immigration issue is three tiered in so far as the public are much more receptive to western Europeans, followed by eastern Europeans, and finally what I'll loosely call non-EU (which is really code for muslim/ islam in the public consciousness). Basically there are degrees of hostility

Polling has now been conducted of course on the cross tabs of why people voted the way they did. 58% of conservative voters, voted to leave, as opposed to 37% of Labour voters. The strongest remain by political party came from Plaid Cymru incidentally, and I'm definitely bemused by the 4% of UKIP voters who supported Remain

By issue it broke down like this

Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”. One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.” Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.” Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.”

I'm growing interested in the developing concept of 'democratic insurgency' which is what we're seeing across the globe. Were it not for Hillary Clinton, the probability is that Bernie Sanders would be fighting an election against Donald Trump right now. Sanders wasn't even a Democrat, and quite who Trump supports is anyone's guess. Only this month in Austria we saw a Green narrowly beat a neo Fascist, with the two established parties failing to even make the run off for the first time ever. This week Iceland voted in an outsider with no history of public service. I see little prospect that in France, Francois Hollande will make the run off similarly. If they were on FPTP, the strong possibility exists that they'd vote in the FN. Poland and Hungary have both voted for extreme nationalist parties. If France wanted to demonstrate to the world how strong pro-European sentiment is there, they could always call a referendum of their own and try and face down the 61% who Pew Research discovered described it as "unfavourable". We know they wouldn't dare though. Same with Italy.

Basically whole structures are breaking down, and I think the bigger influence on this is the hangover from the credit crunch. The establishment parties of the west have pedalled the idea of what I'll call a 'data led' recovery. Certain industries in certain geographies have recovered, but others are seeing next to no benefit for close to a decade now. There was some lousy messaging too from Remain. When George Osborne warns of dangers of job losses at JP Morgan does he not realise that if you're on the minimum wage in Middlesborough you're reaction to this is likely to be "good, see how you like it". Basically it isn't happening and people feel it. This is where the push back is coming from, and when that happens vacuums open up and populists emerge.

I think one of the more revealing insights into this, for me at least, came from Margaret Hodge in the wake of Rover's closure of Longbridge. She genuinely told the redundant workers that there was a new Tesco opening (it never did incidentally) and they could all get jobs there. Politicians rarely accord 'income' and 'wages' the importance that they do 'jobs'. Cameron and Osborne have been equally guilty. It blinds them. So far as I can see, there have been new jobs created, but a lot of them are tertiary. We've seen an explosion in commission only sales jobs for instance. We've seen spikes in low paid, low skilled activity which often come with degraded T&C's. Residential care for the elderly (leave voters) is another job growth area, but you'll struggle to build a dynamic exporting economy in these fields.

You can pretend that everything is rosey for only so long before you get a push back. If a populist emerges and says "I can put this right", people are receptive to the hope that they can. Even if they ask "how?", and are met with the answer "I can", they're still prepared to say "oh well, it can't get any worse, lets give it a go"

I saw Joe Scarborough (who you'll doubtless be familiar with) recanting a story recently about how he drove 'outside the bubble' to attend a friends wedding. As he got further away from DC he started to encounter more and more Trump posters. He says how he eventually pulled up (I think he was on his way to PA or OH) and rang Mika and simply said "Trumps going to win". It reminded me of a 'Remain' campaigner (forget who now) who was working Wales, recanting how he came back to London to be met with deluded jubiliation from out of touch campaigners who felt their campaign within the M25 was going really well

Tony Blair on MSNBC earlier this week made a good observation about how the centerists who'd swept the 1990's and first part of the 2000's stopped being pro-active and dynamic, and have instead become the establishment, settling into a modus operendi of administering and defending the gains, rather than pushing new ideas forward. This means they surrender the progressive territory, and when the credit crunch hit, the alternative has been filled by populism. He also made an interesting point about social media has been used to message this. It wasn't the message itself that he said was difficult to combat, but the sheer speed with which it can be deployed and take hold - but that's for another day. I've just checked Ann Coulter's account incidentally, and she has 883K followers

I'm no saying that racism isn't a factor, of course it is, and its a significant one, but there are a lot of moving parts involved to this, it isn't confined to the UK. As a tag I quite like "democratic insurgency", I think it captures it well. The root is in economic tensions, that's one goes in one end of the cranking machinery, what comes out the other - well that's where things are breaking down[/QUOTE

RACIST!

I can agree with a lot of the premises you pitch out there but don't think Sanders would have beaten any other candidate either.
I always thought that if Biden had run the election would be over as he would be leading the polls by 30% with no hope for Trump.
Also think he could have beaten Sanders. Sadly I'm thinking more and more that Clinton is keeping Trump in the game.
This probably belongs on the US election thread but when you read opinion pieces from the WP I'm posting below then it is a scary proposition
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-b:homepage/story
 
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Secondly there is this trap that many want to believe that every city outside the M25 is Middlesbrough

I think there's probably a dynamic within a dynamic here.

Middlesborough isn't a city. It might sound pedantic, but I don't think it is. The core cities for the most part broke for Remain (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Newcastle, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol, even Leicester). Sheffield fell by just 5300, Birmingham by 3800, and Nottingham by 2000

These major urban areas didn't do too badly under the new Labour years. Many succeeded in attracting EU structure funds, and saw relatively successful economic development programmes and regeneration

It was the tier below the big cities; the towns of between 30,000 to 200,000 that struggled and who the government never really got round to funding. These, combined with rural areas were the ones who seem to have broken heavily for leave, and its this category that the likes of Middlesborough would fit into
 
I would think a good look back through posts gloating at the "english" ftse 100 falls which are now "irrelevant " could be in order

The ftse 250 is still over 50% higher than 4 years ago and is not 9% down

But point is irrelevant . Only one cherry picking here . I and others have said that the markets are not that vital whereas you and others were jumping up and down with glee when it suited you
 
I read a short while back that Birmingham Manchester Leeds and Liverpool were in the top ten fastest growing European cities I think brum might have been top

Mind you we are talking Europe here....
 
It strikes me that there was an agenda by certain Tories and leavers in the lead up to this vote to continually discredit the warnings of financial experts, using the 2008 recession as a reference point to suit their own elitist economic agenda. I just don't think this was fair.
This isn't just about the morning after the vote, its about whether this decision, (if carried out) will help or hinder the U.K's long term growth amongst other things.

'Financial experts' is something of an oxymoron methinks. Collectively they've proved themselves pretty inept at economic forecasting. I'm not really dissing them as in my opinion it's a field in which the future is damned difficult to predict; I just wish they would admit this and the public realise that it's all at best educated guesses

Not sure that there was a concerted effort to discredit warnings/forecasts by either camp other than the wholly expected dismissing by the Leave camp of the guesses by a pro-Remaining 'expert' and vice versa. On the contrary both camps bombarded us with forecasts of great tidings and woe, presumably in the belief Joe Public would be swayed. So all was fair if somewhat testicular

I suspect Marble that there's a number of correspondents on this thread who are employed within those nebulous businesses that go under the umbrella term of 'financial services', hence the polarised opinions and rollercoasting FTSE wank-fest :)
 
I would think a good look back through posts gloating at the "english" ftse 100 falls which are now "irrelevant " could be in order

The ftse 250 is still over 50% higher than 4 years ago and is not 9% down

But point is irrelevant . Only one cherry picking here . I and others have said that the markets are not that vital whereas you and others were jumping up and down with glee when it suited you

Illustrating my point once again
FTSE 250 17260 at close on Thursday
At 15842 as we speak. Makes for an 8.2% drop.
Of course no comment on Sterling or global market caps

You might want to point me to where I ever mentioned the English FTSE 100. Save your self the time you won't find any.
 
'Financial experts' is something of an oxymoron methinks. Collectively they've proved themselves pretty inept at economic forecasting. I'm not really dissing them as in my opinion it's a field in which the future is damned difficult to predict; I just wish they would admit this and the public realise that it's all at best educated guesses

Not sure that there was a concerted effort to discredit warnings/forecasts by either camp other than the wholly expected dismissing by the Leave camp of the guesses by a pro-Remaining 'expert' and vice versa. On the contrary both camps bombarded us with forecasts of great tidings and woe, presumably in the belief Joe Public would be swayed. So all was fair if somewhat testicular

I suspect Marble that there's a number of correspondents on this thread who are employed within those nebulous businesses that go under the umbrella term of 'financial services', hence the polarised opinions and rollercoasting FTSE wank-fest :)

:lol: You are most likely not far off with that last statement
 
When I joined you chitter-chatterers the intention was to re-invent myself as a polite, cerebral, non-confrontational and non-partizan political pygmy

I'm happy to remain pygmoid but the rest has been a trying and unhappy experience

By the way over at moribund TRF I seem have been cast as resident 'political expert': in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king...nice
 
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'Financial experts' is something of an oxymoron methinks. Collectively they've proved themselves pretty inept at economic forecasting. I'm not really dissing them as in my opinion it's a field in which the future is damned difficult to predict; I just wish they would admit this and the public realise that it's all at best educated guesses

Not sure that there was a concerted effort to discredit warnings/forecasts by either camp other than the wholly expected dismissing by the Leave camp of the guesses by a pro-Remaining 'expert' and vice versa. On the contrary both camps bombarded us with forecasts of great tidings and woe, presumably in the belief Joe Public would be swayed. So all was fair if somewhat testicular

I suspect Marble that there's a number of correspondents on this thread who are employed within those nebulous businesses that go under the umbrella term of 'financial services', hence the polarised opinions and rollercoasting FTSE wank-fest :)

Not always correct when discussing the independent economists.

There are many that believed (as i do and stated so) that the actual economic impact will be far less either way than most assume.

I've linked to two cases in point
 
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I read a short while back that Birmingham Manchester Leeds and Liverpool were in the top ten fastest growing European cities I think brum might have been top

Probably depends on the baseline date used? The UK contracted in the shadow of the credit crunch, Birmingham was a particular victim. There would have been a fairly big upside in Birmingham once it rebounded, which could be presented as growth. The European economies reacted more to the Euro crisis and were probably experiencing stagnation over the survey period.

The UK cities have a bright future though, especially those of the "northern powerhouse" once the dynamic effects of HS2 are unleashed! £56Bn I read yesterday! That's more than the annual UK defence budget. Urm ......
 
As a leave campaigner what do you expect her to say?

She could have the grace and the cop-on to acknowledge the problems Brexit will create for the north and it is her job to help in trying to solve some of them.

To give a few examples. Derry is faced with the prospect of an important international border wrapping around its suburbs. The agricultural sector is closely integrated, especially the milk sector where dairies freely collect milk from farmers on either side of the border. Prize money at Down Royal and Downpatrick is denominated in euros because racing in the north is funded and administered from the south. Hundreds of thousands hold both passports, soon to be joined by many thousands more; for many people questions of identity and nationality are fluid and barriers between the two traditions are coming down (quite literally).

And now this happens. The worst thing of all is that, as the debate on here illustrated (Northern Ireland barely got a mention), nobody in England, including the woman in charge, seems to give a toss about it.
 
European cities were hit by credit crunch too. Not sure where you are coming from.

It was over a longer time frame. I'm pretty sure
 
My point is that the usual clichés lazily parroted i n certain media are nothing more than that. Only London is prospering. All Scots voted to remain . No tory voters in the north blah blah bbc
 
So Nicola Sturgeon thought she'd hot foot it to Brussels dressed resplendently in European blue, I'm not sure it worked though; from the BBC website -

Acting Spanish prime minister Mr Rajoy said after a summit of EU leaders in Brussels that he wanted to be "very clear Scotland does not have the competence to negotiate with the European Union". He added: "Spain opposes any negotiation by anyone other than the government of United Kingdom. I am extremely against it, the treaties are extremely against it and I believe everyone is extremely against it. If the United Kingdom leaves... Scotland leaves."


Spain was a vocal opponent of Scottish independence ahead of the 2014 referendum, largely because of the situation in Catalonia where there is a strong independence movement.


Meanwhile, Mr Hollande said: "The negotiations will be conducted with the United Kingdom, not with a part of the United Kingdom".

I'm actually more interested in what John Kerry has said in the last few hours to be honest, and that seems to chime with an oblique reference that the much diminished David Cameron came out with at PMQ's as he signed off an answer to Douglas Carswell.
 
Ali is a RACIST warbler and drone being close to voting leave are near RACIST

Racism and xenophobia is about making lazy generalisations about communities.

I'll have to don body armour next time I take my whippet for a walk and keep my letterbox boarded-up for saying this but some of my best friends are from Lancashire

Mainly because we all agree that the edge of the world and descent into an abyssal Hades populated by swarms of wailing financial experts lies immediately south of a line drawn between Town Moor and Haydock Park

Mind you Nicola Sturgeon believes the River Tweed is the River Styx. How daft is that? Thank goodness that the by-law permitting we residents of York to shoot a Scotsperson on sight hasn't been repealed. You missed that one Mr Juncker, bless you
 
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European cities were hit by credit crunch too. Not sure where you are coming from. It was over a longer time frame. I'm pretty sure

We went into recession in 2008, the Eurozone went into recession in 2009 and again in 2012. They followed a slightly different trajectory to the UK

Basically ourselves (and the Spanish) were particularly vulnerable to property led investments. The credit crunch affected us more markedly than it did Germany for instance. All I was saying is that if you took a convenient baseline date, and some time in the middle of the sovereign debt crisis as the end point (which didn't affect us as much) then a statistician could show the UK as having impressive growth. Equally they could probably generate a graph that painted a different picture if you took a high starting point and finished on low point too.

It's not worth going over though, as frankly there are more important issues at stake. I should say though, that I've seen a report that actualyl cited Inverness as the fastest growing city in Europe. Again I suspect it revolves around baseline data
 
I guess that would have been Alex Farquhar, the brains behind Macbet. A damn good bookmaker who 'took a view'. Are he and they still around?

Macbet still has its shop on Leith Walk, and (though I haven't been racing there in a while) he was the Board they all followed down at Musselburgh, for a long time.
 
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