Departures 2009
- Thread starter Sheikh
- Start date
WINSUMDREAMS, 5 y.o. debut hurdler, SU on the bend on first circuit, Ballinrobe, 5.40. Broke off-fore - poor wee mite, had only had one Bumper previous to today. Totally in the care of the Mooney family - trained, owned, and ridden, so no doubt a blow for them.
Roddy Owen
At the Start
Diminuendo
At the Start
O'Maley at Perth.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Yes, O'Maley sustained a fatal injury at a water-jump.
Dare we raise this subject again?
Dare we raise this subject again?
G-G
Senior Jockey
Elusive Glen, 3yr colt trained by Mark Johnston, after his run at Beverley yesterday.
jumps fan ed06
At the Start
Re O'Malley how many more must be lost at these stupid water jumps before they are got rid of. I love jump racing but I just cant see the logic in keeping these silly jumps. If its as a spectator thing like in front of the stands aka Aintree Newbury and until recently Haydock then surely the crowd would get far more pleasure / wow factor from seeing the field jump an open ditch.
Last year, from over 300 NH fatalities which I kept track of, only one was at a water jump. The problem, to my mind, is that we don't have enough variety in our NH courses any more. Horses become bored by the endless rounds of one open, three uprights, one open, three uprights, and then - oh, what's this? - a surprise water jump. Not that they should find it difficult - they are so NOT big here - nothing like the stretch which eventers and showjumpers have to make. If they've taken off half a stride too early, though, they may put a foot in it and then slip, causing a fall.
I'll haul out my pet, now: French jumps racing. (Oh, noooo, please, noooo, come the cries from the back bar.) Look at the variety of obstacles the French horses handle, with very few injuries, let alone fatalities. They're bred for the job in hand, of course, so their races don't contain dozens of Flat-bred, Flat-raced rejects like so many of our races do, and they start them schooling over jumps as soon as they're ridden. They're also schooled over obstacles every day - not just once a week or so.
The obstacles in France teach horses to keep their eye in so much better than here. They have different textures, heights, widths, and not all are jumps - think of the bank and the double bank (the 'Big Cheese') at Auteuil, for example. They jump through the bullfinch, they tackle a real brick wall (albeit topped with a polystyrene guard), they go over jumps with solid sides, and with rails. They are, in other words, kept thoroughly engaged throughout their races.
We've reduced our hunting heritage to the most boring possible obstacles, while the French continue to present their horses at the sort of challenges hunters would find in the hunting field. We still call our racing 'National Hunt', which is absurd - by all means call it 'jumps racing', because it is only that. A chase should represent a day's hunting encapsulated in a single race. The only one in the UK to do that is the much-maligned and even ridiculed X-country at Cheltenham, where people who really ought to know better have opined that it's not a "proper" NH race! They think it's a novelty, whereas it's the daily norm for French horses.
Even our Grand National no longer sets the serious challenges of its past - probably a good thing, as an extreme test of courage, skill, and stamina it's enough without expecting to see horses crashing out en masse but, basically, we've reduced our chasing from spectacle to tedium.
I'm not surprised when the odd horse has a tumble at the water jump, because they're probably as amazed as I am that a few courses still maintain them, but they're not the main cause of NH deaths. Those are, in the main, too much speed on too firm ground - and what is the final nail in our 'hunt' coffin - summer jumping. There is no such thing as 'summer National Hunt' - it's a ghastly commercial invention which knackers dozens of horses every year. National Hunt, once upon a time, was (surprise!) based around the hunting season. Now, it's been extended, like a cheap and nasty lean-to on a once-elegant house, around Fundays on Sundays, beer-swilling fests, and the truly hideous spectacle of Ladeeze Daze.
So, sorry, me hearties, there's no way that water jumps (where still almost radically in use) should be grassed over. What should happen is that Irish and British courses should stop being so damn lazy, give horses the variety of obstacles they're perfectly capable of tackling and which keep them from becoming sour or complacent (which leads to loss of interest and concentration), and bring back real spectacle to jumps racing. I thank you!
I'll haul out my pet, now: French jumps racing. (Oh, noooo, please, noooo, come the cries from the back bar.) Look at the variety of obstacles the French horses handle, with very few injuries, let alone fatalities. They're bred for the job in hand, of course, so their races don't contain dozens of Flat-bred, Flat-raced rejects like so many of our races do, and they start them schooling over jumps as soon as they're ridden. They're also schooled over obstacles every day - not just once a week or so.
The obstacles in France teach horses to keep their eye in so much better than here. They have different textures, heights, widths, and not all are jumps - think of the bank and the double bank (the 'Big Cheese') at Auteuil, for example. They jump through the bullfinch, they tackle a real brick wall (albeit topped with a polystyrene guard), they go over jumps with solid sides, and with rails. They are, in other words, kept thoroughly engaged throughout their races.
We've reduced our hunting heritage to the most boring possible obstacles, while the French continue to present their horses at the sort of challenges hunters would find in the hunting field. We still call our racing 'National Hunt', which is absurd - by all means call it 'jumps racing', because it is only that. A chase should represent a day's hunting encapsulated in a single race. The only one in the UK to do that is the much-maligned and even ridiculed X-country at Cheltenham, where people who really ought to know better have opined that it's not a "proper" NH race! They think it's a novelty, whereas it's the daily norm for French horses.
Even our Grand National no longer sets the serious challenges of its past - probably a good thing, as an extreme test of courage, skill, and stamina it's enough without expecting to see horses crashing out en masse but, basically, we've reduced our chasing from spectacle to tedium.
I'm not surprised when the odd horse has a tumble at the water jump, because they're probably as amazed as I am that a few courses still maintain them, but they're not the main cause of NH deaths. Those are, in the main, too much speed on too firm ground - and what is the final nail in our 'hunt' coffin - summer jumping. There is no such thing as 'summer National Hunt' - it's a ghastly commercial invention which knackers dozens of horses every year. National Hunt, once upon a time, was (surprise!) based around the hunting season. Now, it's been extended, like a cheap and nasty lean-to on a once-elegant house, around Fundays on Sundays, beer-swilling fests, and the truly hideous spectacle of Ladeeze Daze.
So, sorry, me hearties, there's no way that water jumps (where still almost radically in use) should be grassed over. What should happen is that Irish and British courses should stop being so damn lazy, give horses the variety of obstacles they're perfectly capable of tackling and which keep them from becoming sour or complacent (which leads to loss of interest and concentration), and bring back real spectacle to jumps racing. I thank you!
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Do we know what percentage of fences are water jumps, must be quite low now?
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Kri hits the nail on the head - I do find it funny that the very best Chasers in the UK/Ireland (Kauto, Master Minded, Neptune etc.) are French-bred's yet France's best Chaser (Remember Rose) is an Irish-bred.
Bring on 24/5/2009
Bring on 24/5/2009
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Prior to this season I could count on one hand the number of fallers I've seen at water jumps, to the best of my knowledge they've not suddenly added more water or made them taller which makes you wonder why there are so many fallers?
I can think of only one possible reason - trainers are doing something differently.
I can think of only one possible reason - trainers are doing something differently.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Don't think you'll find many trainers will have water-jumps at home, IS.
(Surprised at kind words from IS and Redhead - thanks for your support, folks!)
Colin, you do the rounds for Racing Ahead - not too hard for you to work out which courses still maintain a water jump. I think we can say that all NH courses used to have them. Plumpton used to have theirs down near the railway crossing, but that's long gone. I think it was even a natural-fed one, from the drainage ditches which the course has running through its centre.
Colin, you do the rounds for Racing Ahead - not too hard for you to work out which courses still maintain a water jump. I think we can say that all NH courses used to have them. Plumpton used to have theirs down near the railway crossing, but that's long gone. I think it was even a natural-fed one, from the drainage ditches which the course has running through its centre.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
There are lots of courses I haven't been to yet, Kri.
The point I was making is that there are a lot fewer water-jumps jumped than any other type of fence, and therefore you would expect a fairly low number of fatalities.
What we need to compare is the number of fatalities per water jumped, as opposed to the number of fatalities per open ditch, or the number of fatalities per plain fence.
The point I was making is that there are a lot fewer water-jumps jumped than any other type of fence, and therefore you would expect a fairly low number of fatalities.
What we need to compare is the number of fatalities per water jumped, as opposed to the number of fatalities per open ditch, or the number of fatalities per plain fence.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
I've just read on another forum that there are now only 16 courses that have a water-jump.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Why don't they then Colin? So our trainers are asking horses to jump something they've never seen before?
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Cost? Laziness?.................don't really know, IS.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Would say it's likely to be a bit of both Colin. Don't see how they can have any complaints if something does go wrong at a water jump if they don't even bother to practice them at home.
There are 24 pure NH courses, and 18 dual purpose ones, or, 42 staging jumps meetings. Some, like Lingfield, staging very few! If there are 16 with water jumps, that's about 38%, enough, I'd have thought, for trainers to encourage their horses over them at home, since the chances of finding races which wouldn't include them now and then would be unusual.
Right, to your desire for water fatality stats, Colin: assume that the 16 courses with water jumps hold a typical average of 22 meetings each per season. That's 16 x 22 = 352 meetings. At a typical NH meeting, the card breaks down into 3 hurdles, 3 chases, 1 NH Flat. So, 352 meetings x 3 chases per meeting = 1,056. Now, assume you have an average entry of (let's be modest) 10 horses per chase. We have to do that, because each horse faces the water as an individual, taking an individual chance. So, that's 1,056 chases with 10 horses averagely contesting them = 10,560 jumps over the water. However, the water is usually jumped twice, so that's actually 21,120 times in an NH season that water jumps are jumped.
As I said, I witnessed only one direct fatality at a water last year - annoyingly, I haven't noted which course it happened at. He was quite well-known, though, and very capable. He just caught his hind feet in the water on landing, skidded, and sprawled. I'm not saying that there might not have been another fatality during the year at a water, but if there was, I didn't know about it. So one horse died out of 21,119 otherwise perfectly safe jumps - that's not a bad statistic, is it?
The BHA is working on pulling stats together (I understand from another forum that Di Arbuthnot is part of the working party on it) on the reason for in-racing fatalities, and seeking ways to lessen them. There are, as we all know, certain jumps which are designed to represent more of a challenge to runners than others. They're on downhill runs, they come in rows, or they come at the top of an uphill climb. There's no doubt that more of the horses killed at Fontwell, are killed as a result of tanking the back straight chase or hurdles obstacles and overpitching, for example. They may well fall over the last, as well, but by then it's often as the result of tiredness, losing concentration as they see the crowds or the side gate to the stables, and so on.
There's a lot more to the fatalities than just falling - there's the context of the fall, for example. You may have a faller who survives but who BD another, breaking its leg. You have SU's on turns which result in deaths in Bumpers. The worst killers are what are called rotational falls, where horses fall directly onto the front of their heads, usually breaking their necks just behind the ears, as all of their body weight is transferred rapidly onto that fragile area. (Viz MEL IN BLUE in the Foxhunters' Chase at Cheltenham.) These are the result of a specific way of colliding with the jump - the horse takes off too low to clear the top, hits it above the knee with usually his forearms or lower chest, which propels the arc of his body upwards, the head landing first. You do sometimes see this approach when a horse has overjumped the previous obstacle, and is either trying to compensate for that by lowering his trajectory, or has been slowed into the jump by the jockey, who doesn't want another ballooned leap.
There are a lot of fatalities over hurdles which are quite clearly down to sloppy preparation. Again, I'd go back to the French model. The horses are schooled from their first day of proper riding over little obstacles like poles, getting used to using their bodies for jumping. By the time they're only 3, they're already experienced with the stuffed-brush French hurdle. They're used to being ridden in the style which jumps jockeys, not Flat jockeys, adopt. What are too many of our nascent hurdlers doing? Being rushed through a quick few weeks over hurdles at their yards, having not done much, if anything, on the Flat. They haven't even got used to being ridden in a different way to the way they were asked to move for Flat races, hence we see so much rank behaviour. Horses are invited to pull against the bit for Flat racing - but you don't want an animal with its head in the air, fighting for the bit because it can't understand why it's being restrained, in hurdling. Again and again, we see appalling examples of what are all but blind bolters tanking for the first, heads in the air, the jockey sitting as tight on the rein as he can, and the horse not settling until sheer exhaustion begins to set in. That isn't hurdling - that's just rushing madly over obstacles! No wonder there are so many crashes through the wings, ROs, and PUs of horses exhausted by over-exerting themselves with bad behaviour. The French hurdlers, you'll have noticed, don't come over here and bolt off as if the Hounds of Hell are on their tail - they're tractable, they can be placed where the jockey wants them to go, they take willingly to any restraint, and they jump fluently. That's because they've been treated, like greyhounds, from their earliest days to do the job they're bred to do - not switched within weeks from one very different code to another, without proper re-training. You might as well have chucked your Flat horse over a few showjumps at home and expected him to go into the show-ring perfectly behaved, for all the help some British horses get before appearing in an entirely new career. Hurdling is treated by some as if it's just flat racing with a few things in the way, and there are hundreds of examples every week of just how flawed - and sometimes fatal - this thinking is. The BHA could, of course, mandate against the potential for crashing falls and other errant behaviour in hurdlers by requiring all Flat racers to be checked out for their skills at home by a monitor, prior to being accepted into NH racing. Because we know that the next step is, if they're not that good at hurdles - why, bung 'em into a Beginners' Chase! Aaaaghhh!
I leave it up to you to play with the stats for hurdles and Bumpers! However, the 270 horses in training which departed last year include accidents on the gallops, colic, in the stalls, as a result of overstrikes (injuries to tendons), slips on turns, BDs, heart attacks, as well as falls over jumps and hurdles. As far as water jumping's involved, though, it really doesn't contribute to a point of concern as much as bad standards in preparation, and forcing very tired horses over the last couple of jumps should.
Right, to your desire for water fatality stats, Colin: assume that the 16 courses with water jumps hold a typical average of 22 meetings each per season. That's 16 x 22 = 352 meetings. At a typical NH meeting, the card breaks down into 3 hurdles, 3 chases, 1 NH Flat. So, 352 meetings x 3 chases per meeting = 1,056. Now, assume you have an average entry of (let's be modest) 10 horses per chase. We have to do that, because each horse faces the water as an individual, taking an individual chance. So, that's 1,056 chases with 10 horses averagely contesting them = 10,560 jumps over the water. However, the water is usually jumped twice, so that's actually 21,120 times in an NH season that water jumps are jumped.
As I said, I witnessed only one direct fatality at a water last year - annoyingly, I haven't noted which course it happened at. He was quite well-known, though, and very capable. He just caught his hind feet in the water on landing, skidded, and sprawled. I'm not saying that there might not have been another fatality during the year at a water, but if there was, I didn't know about it. So one horse died out of 21,119 otherwise perfectly safe jumps - that's not a bad statistic, is it?
The BHA is working on pulling stats together (I understand from another forum that Di Arbuthnot is part of the working party on it) on the reason for in-racing fatalities, and seeking ways to lessen them. There are, as we all know, certain jumps which are designed to represent more of a challenge to runners than others. They're on downhill runs, they come in rows, or they come at the top of an uphill climb. There's no doubt that more of the horses killed at Fontwell, are killed as a result of tanking the back straight chase or hurdles obstacles and overpitching, for example. They may well fall over the last, as well, but by then it's often as the result of tiredness, losing concentration as they see the crowds or the side gate to the stables, and so on.
There's a lot more to the fatalities than just falling - there's the context of the fall, for example. You may have a faller who survives but who BD another, breaking its leg. You have SU's on turns which result in deaths in Bumpers. The worst killers are what are called rotational falls, where horses fall directly onto the front of their heads, usually breaking their necks just behind the ears, as all of their body weight is transferred rapidly onto that fragile area. (Viz MEL IN BLUE in the Foxhunters' Chase at Cheltenham.) These are the result of a specific way of colliding with the jump - the horse takes off too low to clear the top, hits it above the knee with usually his forearms or lower chest, which propels the arc of his body upwards, the head landing first. You do sometimes see this approach when a horse has overjumped the previous obstacle, and is either trying to compensate for that by lowering his trajectory, or has been slowed into the jump by the jockey, who doesn't want another ballooned leap.
There are a lot of fatalities over hurdles which are quite clearly down to sloppy preparation. Again, I'd go back to the French model. The horses are schooled from their first day of proper riding over little obstacles like poles, getting used to using their bodies for jumping. By the time they're only 3, they're already experienced with the stuffed-brush French hurdle. They're used to being ridden in the style which jumps jockeys, not Flat jockeys, adopt. What are too many of our nascent hurdlers doing? Being rushed through a quick few weeks over hurdles at their yards, having not done much, if anything, on the Flat. They haven't even got used to being ridden in a different way to the way they were asked to move for Flat races, hence we see so much rank behaviour. Horses are invited to pull against the bit for Flat racing - but you don't want an animal with its head in the air, fighting for the bit because it can't understand why it's being restrained, in hurdling. Again and again, we see appalling examples of what are all but blind bolters tanking for the first, heads in the air, the jockey sitting as tight on the rein as he can, and the horse not settling until sheer exhaustion begins to set in. That isn't hurdling - that's just rushing madly over obstacles! No wonder there are so many crashes through the wings, ROs, and PUs of horses exhausted by over-exerting themselves with bad behaviour. The French hurdlers, you'll have noticed, don't come over here and bolt off as if the Hounds of Hell are on their tail - they're tractable, they can be placed where the jockey wants them to go, they take willingly to any restraint, and they jump fluently. That's because they've been treated, like greyhounds, from their earliest days to do the job they're bred to do - not switched within weeks from one very different code to another, without proper re-training. You might as well have chucked your Flat horse over a few showjumps at home and expected him to go into the show-ring perfectly behaved, for all the help some British horses get before appearing in an entirely new career. Hurdling is treated by some as if it's just flat racing with a few things in the way, and there are hundreds of examples every week of just how flawed - and sometimes fatal - this thinking is. The BHA could, of course, mandate against the potential for crashing falls and other errant behaviour in hurdlers by requiring all Flat racers to be checked out for their skills at home by a monitor, prior to being accepted into NH racing. Because we know that the next step is, if they're not that good at hurdles - why, bung 'em into a Beginners' Chase! Aaaaghhh!
I leave it up to you to play with the stats for hurdles and Bumpers! However, the 270 horses in training which departed last year include accidents on the gallops, colic, in the stalls, as a result of overstrikes (injuries to tendons), slips on turns, BDs, heart attacks, as well as falls over jumps and hurdles. As far as water jumping's involved, though, it really doesn't contribute to a point of concern as much as bad standards in preparation, and forcing very tired horses over the last couple of jumps should.
uncle goober
At the Start
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2005
- Messages
- 1,277
I think they should remove all last fences.
I don't know why I can't get emoticons on here, Uncle Gooberlicious, but I'd put up a big laughy one if I could! Love the idea of 'no last fence' - very existential, that!
Jeez, I've just looked at what I've put up - sorry, everyone, got caught up in the moment and went off into essay mode! Still, it's a subject of more than a little interest to me, so I'm afraid that's what happens now and then!
(Aidan: Jeez, will she please go! Our bandwidth's ruined!)
Jeez, I've just looked at what I've put up - sorry, everyone, got caught up in the moment and went off into essay mode! Still, it's a subject of more than a little interest to me, so I'm afraid that's what happens now and then!
(Aidan: Jeez, will she please go! Our bandwidth's ruined!)
Last edited:
Colin Phillips
At the Start
No need for any apology, Kri.
I'm not really convinced by the mathematics but I will shut up, for now.
I'm not really convinced by the mathematics but I will shut up, for now.
My Maths are dreadful, so please feel free to check them out! Don't shut up - it's presumably something that interests you, too, or you wouldn't have raised it.
I've knackered myself with that little epoch, so I'm off for a nice cuppa and CSI or something like that!
I've knackered myself with that little epoch, so I'm off for a nice cuppa and CSI or something like that!
Shadow Leader
At the Start
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 9,884
I can see what you're saying about French horses Kri, but there are still plenty of them that jump like their legs are tied together!
Removing water jumps is not the answer - it won't lessen fatalities. Those that killed themselves at water jumps would only have killed themselves at the next open ditch or some other fence I'm sure. Jockeys universally like jumping water jumps as they are, as a general rule, easy to jump and few make mistakes at them.
Anyone seen Newbury's water jump lately? It's been dumbed down to such an extent that it is a piece of piss - I'd take my boy [or any other horse] over it tomorrow, quite happily.
Removing water jumps is not the answer - it won't lessen fatalities. Those that killed themselves at water jumps would only have killed themselves at the next open ditch or some other fence I'm sure. Jockeys universally like jumping water jumps as they are, as a general rule, easy to jump and few make mistakes at them.
Anyone seen Newbury's water jump lately? It's been dumbed down to such an extent that it is a piece of piss - I'd take my boy [or any other horse] over it tomorrow, quite happily.