Frankel V Canford Cliffs

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Aragorn said:
I agree that eventually it will bottom him but everyone is panning Queally for something he did only 6 weeks prior and Frankel was being hailed as the second coming.

They've ridden Frankel all kinds of ways so far and he's won regardless. He's a special horse and I think they wanted to do something special for Royal Ascot - If they had waited a furlong they probably would have done it but he went earlier than ideal. Not too early though cos he won. There is a difference.

I'm not convinced riding him for a turn of foot is the right way to go either. I think over a furlong burst there will be horses as fast as him, sustaining it over 4f I don't think anything can cope with him.
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I wasn't a massive fan of the guineas ride..the only way you can justify a ride like that is that the horse is that good..that he wins by 15..basically a Secretariat

same at Ascot..if Frankel had won by 10+ i doubt anyone would question the ride becasue we know that the horse is just a freak to go that fast and still win by a large distance

lets say in the Belmont..that after kicking so hard so far out..that Secretariat had only won by a dimininshing 3/4 len..i think that the overiding view would be..why did he kick so far out..we know he kicked so far out because the horse was a monster the likes we may not see again

i'm starting to wonder if Cecil & Queallly have believed Frankel is so good that he could do the Secretariat thing..and still finish full of running.

My theory about how far he won at Newmarket..and how far at Ascot is..at Newmarket the downhill section to the bushes..helped keep his momentum going..but as they rose uphill to the line he tired...at Ascot..you are on the collar uphill for a sustained 2.5 furlongs in the straight..thats a big hit on a horse's reserves after such a mid race burst.

it was very harsh to expect a horse to run uphill at Ascot after that mid race burst

i don't think anyone is suggesting a 1 furlong burst Aragorn..lets compromise and say that 4 furlong out is fookin ridiculous..and 1f out might be too little..so what about 2f..or when they hit the Ascot straight
 
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Rip Van Winkle was given the perfect ride in the Sussex a couple of years back. That's the template they should be looking at assuming he runs at Goodwood.
 
EC1 said:
i don't think anyone is suggesting a 1 furlong burst Aragorn..lets compromise and say that 4 furlong out is fookin ridiculous..and 1f out might be too little..so what about 2f..or when they hit the Ascot straight
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Even on the turn, as in the Royal Lodge! That's the weird thing - he'd put up such a good performance there, why change the tactics? Okay, so the SJP was probably run at a faster early pace, but surely that would make him hold on to the horse longer.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Even on the turn, as in the Royal Lodge! That's the weird thing - he'd put up such a good performance there, why change the tactics? Okay, so the SJP was probably run at a faster early pace, but surely that would make him hold on to the horse longer.
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Which makes Queally's suggestion that his ride in the SJPS was " the plan " so incredible . Cecil said take it up before the turn as he did in the Royal Lodge - not go after the pacemaker like an idiot three furlongs before the turn.
 
Bar the Bull said:
It couldn't have been more than 5 lengths, at the 2 pole. At 1.15 on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLmu_pHF0sA

Watching it again, Hughes was very quick in following Frankel with Dubawi Gold. Zoffany got a much more patient ride. I will probably be backing Dubawi Gold if he reappears over a mile next time.
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Pretty clearly that was the owner's idea after the Irish Guineas - backfired big time.
 
Ardross said:
Which makes Queally's suggestion that his ride in the SJPS was " the plan " so incredible . Cecil said take it up before the turn as he did in the Royal Lodge - not go after the pacemaker like an idiot three furlongs before the turn.
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Absolutely... it is incredible that this was the plan (it was surely not what Cecil intended). If this is how Queally interpreted "the plan" he is surely incompetent on more than one level.
 
Ardross said:
Which makes Queally's suggestion that his ride in the SJPS was " the plan " so incredible . Cecil said take it up before the turn as he did in the Royal Lodge - not go after the pacemaker like an idiot three furlongs before the turn.
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Exactly - I'm suprised the racing press haven't picked up on Queally's comments more - when a jockey starts contradicting his trainer like this, it's usually the beginning of the end.
 
Bar the Bull said:
I was in Normandy.

I read on this forum earlier that Moore's ride on SYT was more forgiveable than Queally's on Frankel.

I think people forget that Moore lost, and Queally won.
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You know a lot more about racing than to make comments like that.

If I put you on Frankel against 80 rated horses you'd probably lose.
 
Hamm said:
Exactly - I'm suprised the racing press haven't picked up on Queally's comments more - when a jockey starts contradicting his trainer like this, it's usually the beginning of the end.
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One can but hope - perhaps Cecil and Hanagan might be a good team - taking him from the northern circuit and giving him access to top rides.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFb8dybrQA0

Two things of interest in this video. Firstly, King of Kings was a serious miler. A shame he neither got the chance to do it again, and that he never made a decent fist of it at stud.

The main point of interest in the context of this thread is the way the timings pop up immediately at the 2f, 4f and 6f poles. This was well before the Turftrax experiment I believe; why was this discontinued?
 
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Bar the Bull said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFb8dybrQA0

King of Kings was a serious miler. A shame he neither got the chance to do it again, and that he never made a decent fist of it at stud.
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If you’ll allow a personal recollection… May 2 1998 boiled down to a very memorable 10 minutes for me. Although usually in attendance for the Guineas I couldn’t be at Newmarket that year, despite being on King Of Kings at all sorts of prices from 8/1 down to the starting price of 7/2 and I believe shorter… I was at Haydock instead for that great feature the Crowther Homes Handicap, to see the invincible Taufan Boy land the odds. I turned from the on course screen to shout KOK home in the 3.40 at Newmarket, adjusted my binoculars in time for TB to kick away from those legendary horses: Campaspe, Artic Fancy, Smart Boy, Turgenev and Swiftway, strung out like washing in the 3.50. That was a day of days!
 
There is a lot of spin coming out of the Hannon camp at the moment such as suggesting that Frankel should go back to seven furlongs or will run too free with a small field .

Fear of frankel or mind games with the flaky Queally ?
 
Ardross said:
There is a lot of spin coming out of the Hannon camp at the moment such as suggesting that Frankel should go back to seven furlongs or will run too free with a small field .

Fear of frankel or mind games with the flaky Queally ?
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Both - They know how good he is so they're trying to create doubts in Queally and Cecil's minds. Suggesting they would drop him back is taking the p!ss though! The settling in the race will probably be an issue but I think he'll probably make all if its a small field anyway.
 
to be honest Hannon Snr and Jnr have been rent a quote for the last fortnight - we've had "big boy nonsense" , "the other horse" - so predictable and quite pathetic .. The Master of Warren Place keeping his powder dry , happy to let his horse do the talking.. Class as ever , something the Hannon pair should try to learn from.. Totally uncalled for, the race itself doesn't need any silly , cheap comments and hype. I expect a great race with Frankel to remain unbeaten.
 
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Re TurfTrax sectional timings: I'm not dead sure why they were discontinued (I know they were shortly before TurfTrax was taken over - was it by BetGenius, or another company?). We used the system at Lingfield and I'm not sure if there was huge enthusiasm for it from punters at the time. It was quite costly to install the timers, and the course had to stump up an extra member of staff to put the sensor discs into the special saddle cloths, so it might've been a cost vs income issue. Anyway, it's being reinstated (via TurfTrax as the operator) for Champions' Day at Ascot in October.
 
krizon said:
Re TurfTrax sectional timings: I'm not dead sure why they were discontinued (I know they were shortly before TurfTrax was taken over - was it by BetGenius, or another company?). We used the system at Lingfield and I'm not sure if there was huge enthusiasm for it from punters at the time. It was quite costly to install the timers, and the course had to stump up an extra member of staff to put the sensor discs into the special saddle cloths, so it might've been a cost vs income issue. Anyway, it's being reinstated (via TurfTrax as the operator) for Champions' Day at Ascot in October.
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It was cost... but as you say it is being reinstated for the Ascot meeting (to help them claim that the meeting is a brilliant success, before probably moving it to September and who knows back again in subsequent years). Thereafter who knows.
 
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I notice that Moore is jocked up on Dick Turpin rather than Zoffany but it sounds like the ground is likely to dry up by Wednesday and that should suit CC.

Frankel now odds on I see . It is a fascinating race especially as Frankel has a flaky jockey - can you imagine any of this with HRAC's great jockeys of the past - Lester or Cauthen .

The key is whether Frankel settles - ride him as they did in the 2000 Guineas or St james's I think CC will definitely catch him and win - if they can settle him and kick two and half furlongs out then I don't know - CC will have to show a response he has never shown before but he might be able to.

I am a massive fan of both horses - I just hope it is a great race ,neither flops and as much as i don't really rate Queally - jockey error plays no part in the result.
 
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