Hennessy Entries

In past Hennessys, horses are all out at the line and come in blowing like hell, even on good ground. This horse looked like he could go round again - and never made a mistake.
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Apologies for reading into this that he wasn't blowing after the race.
 
Reading in the RP Nicholls said he didnt talk up Denman beforehand as he still had Granit Jacks fall at the back of his mind e.g he had talked him up as a good thing (which he was in the process of being proved right) and didnt want to tempt fate. Ruby Walsh on the morning of the Hennessy was reportidly much more confident.
 
It's great to have such an amazing collection of chasers around. I don't recall a time like it since I started following racing in the early 70s.


The hurdlers have also been doing their stuff the last couple of weekends.

Has there ever been better entertainment this early in the season?

Nobody on this thread doubts the excellence of the horses being discussed. Which of them is entitled to be favourite for the Gold Cup is a legitimate subject for discussion.

IMO astronomical ratings for weight-carrying performances in big handicaps are not the same as similar ratings gained off level weights and for now I would prefer to stick to my opinion that Kauto Star is the best we've seen in a long time with two rivals close behind.
 
this doesnt wash with me at all. Easily beaten by 11 lengths in first place, so its barely relevant and also, if there is a determinatin to take such a defeat literally, seems to assume that all the other 16 runners didnt run to their best. Bit unlikely when going for such a prize i think?

can't make head nor tail of that Clive, would you like to explain what you are trying to say?
 
Surely Cive is trying to say that the handicapper seriously underestimated Dream Alliance so your point - which rates the race according to DA's official figure - is invalid.

I agree with Clive, DA's rating can't be taken at face value - he was obviously miles better than 142 going into the race; and there were some very useful horses in behind him. Ergo, Denman - who was cantering on the run in - can't be crabbed on those grounds
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Dec 4 2007, 10:15 AM
Denman might just also be one of those horses that will always be best when carrying a wee bit of condition.
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Erm, how does that work?!

I have never, ever, in all my years in racing, come across a horse who performs at his best when carrying condition, being unfit or being overweight - with respect, that's patent nonsense!

Denman looked better than I expected him to fitness-wise but he still has some tightening up to do. I couldn't possibly agree with the person who remarked to me "Denman looked fat as a pig" as he didn't. He is a burly horse who will never run up tight like a whippet as physically that is not how he is made. He has some tightening left to do but did not look noticeably fat.

That is the frightening thing about the horse - he will undoubtedly improve shedloads for that run as he wasn't at his peak, yet could still deliver such a performance with flawless jumping, whilst bolting in off topweight on very tiring ground.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader+Dec 4 2007, 09:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Shadow Leader @ Dec 4 2007, 09:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Desert Orchid@Dec 4 2007, 10:15 AM
Denman might just also be one of those horses that will always be best when carrying a wee bit of condition.
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Erm, how does that work?!

I have never, ever, in all my years in racing, come across a horse who performs at his best when carrying condition, being unfit or being overweight - with respect, that's patent nonsense!
[/b][/quote]
Here we go again... no one knows more than SL.

You're probably too young to remember, but a couple of decades ago, there was a top French horse (whose name escapes me but I should get it from a relative this evening) who tended to win when looking unfit and lose when looking trained to the minute. The trainer (Boutin?) remarked at the time that it took him a while to discover the horse needed to be trained differently because the fitter he got the horse the more it lost its form.
 
Yes headstrong...put that nicely

Also, Denman completely ran a lot of horses out of it and could be argued that the staying on placed horses were suited by the pattern of the race.

I couldnt possibly be interested in a literal interpretation of the status of the second placed horse when it was beaten so comprehensively by a horse that abolsutely dominated the whole field
 
have never, ever, in all my years in racing, come across a horse who performs at his best when carrying condition, being unfit or being overweight - with respect, that's patent nonsense!
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there might be some supposed exceptions but surely SL's statement is spot on.

Are people really so desperate to knock Denman that they are suggesting he had an advantage not being fully fit?

Ive heard it all now.....
 
Paranoia Clive - it's not knocking Denman, just questioning how much more improvement can be expected on fitness alone. If he's going to improve "shedloads" for fitness, as some have predicted, we're looking at a horse capable of a rating in the 190s. I think that's over-egging the pudding - for the moment at least.
 
Denman might just also be one of those horses that will always be best when carrying a wee bit of condition.


Erm, how does that work?!
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No its not. Try reading the posts and SL's response
 
How is that knocking him? As I read it, all DO is saying is that it may be the case that the horse won't improve for fitness as some expect.
 
Denman might just also be one of those horses that will always be best when carrying a wee bit of condition.
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if i keep pasting.... this then maybe you eventually understand what he said
 
Originally posted by clivex@Dec 5 2007, 10:01 AM
have never, ever, in all my years in racing, come across a horse who performs at his best when carrying condition, being unfit or being overweight - with respect, that's patent nonsense!
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there might be some supposed exceptions but surely SL's statement is spot on.
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If it is accepted that there may be exceptions, then SL's assertion cannot be 'spot on'.

I would like to emphasise that I am not trying to knock the horse or the performance. I'm on record as saying the horse is in KS's class and likely to be better even than the rating I've given him.

The 'condition' idea was no more than a suggestion, based on a previous example, that the expected improvement might not materialise, in the same way as the horse's build might mean less effort was required of Denman than of a smaller, less imposing type, to carry the weight in the ground.
 
To the untrained, or even trained, eye, I may look to some as though I'm the odd stone or five overweight, whereas I am really in peak physical condition. I'm just big boned. I have heard references in the past to what DO is referring and maybe that is what they mean. A horse may look a tad overweight, but they are just big boned and training them harder to lose weight would be counter productive.
 
That is slightly different again from what DO is saying though - it's a given that different horses take different shapes when fit (as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Denman will never run up like a rabbit but he has some tightening to do still) it is another thing entirely to suggest that some horses run better when not fit. Sorry DO but I just can't have that - maybe the language barrier (you did say it was a French trainer!) meant that it was worded wrongly, ie really meaning that the horse is best caught fresh or sours a bit after he's been in work for a while after which it is then a given that he is fitter than at the beginning of the season!
 
Behave - it's a lot, lot longer than the time you've spent in it!!!

(standing at the side of a fence and taking pictures doesn't count.....!!!!!)
 
Ok, I'll repeat the bit I just added - standing at the side of a fence watching and taking pictures doesn't count!!!! I'm talking about dealing with the horses and well you know it.
 
Not only does it not count, it doesn't count with no less than five exclamation marks.

Considering I was racing before you were born, had been racing for many years and accumulated a vast knowledge and experience of racing before you even knew the slightest thing about it, I would say that your statement of
it's a lot, lot longer than the time you've spent in it!!!
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is a load of insulting cock.

You didnt say 'in all my time dealing with the horses' you said 'in all my time racing' and in discussing a horses performance whilst carrying condition, I think I have enough experience to comment on that without working for a yard for at least as long as you, as have other people. Bog off.
 
Some horses do perform at their best when carrying condition but it coincides with them being at their best when fresh, not BECAUSE they are carrying condition. Even then, it would be slight, rather than clearly fat.

There, thats my inexperienced view.
 
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