Lockinge Stakes

EC1 said:
Hannon says CC has also improved..is he telling porkies?
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Hannon has his stable favourites and loves talking horses up. He's a fantastic trainer but his propoganda is absurd.

Goldikova is consistent, she's consistently beat every single miler put infront of her since July 2008 with the exception of Makfi (Excuses for that with the ground and I still maintain Makfi was a top class animal away from Ascot). I'm not sure how you can really over rate such a fantastic achievement.

Twelve months ago everyone was saying how Paco Boy would turn her over, he didn't and Canford never will either.
 
Been reading this thread with interest. The thing that interests me is Hannon not wanting to run both CC and DT in the Lockinge. It's always seemed to me that CC's his favourite of the two and I just wonder if he thinks DT might just be the better horse at this stage of the season. On the other hand he might think DT has no chance of beating CC so he wanted to try and win the French race rather than take on CC.
 
I believe Canford Cliffs is the better horse when there's firm in the ground and Dick Turpin when there's soft in the ground. When it's genuine good ground then there's not a lot between them imo. I was told before the Greenham last year to do a r/f/c because they couldn't separate them on homework. I'm sure C.C. was fancied to finish in front in the 2,000Guineas but I'm not convinced the official going of G/F was correct that day. I also have a feeling that C.C. likes the fast Summer ground and didn't really get that until Ascot last year. I know that had it of come up g/s or soft in the Sussex last year then D.T. would have run and not C.C.

I also agree C.C. put up better performances than D.T. last year and should be considered the better horse but the Lockinge will be run in the spring on genuine good ground and D.T. has proved his well-being - C.C. could be vulnerable and although reports are positive he still has it to prove.

Dick Turpin did get very close to Goldikova last year but that was on his preferred ground with soft in it, ground I'm convinced does not suit Goldikova so the fact she won showed what a superstar mare she is. Ryan Moore was instructed to get out and be up with or make the pace something D.T. was incapable of in the soft last year and I'm not sure if it was becuse of a long season or because of the ground.

Richard Hughes has mentioned this season that he thinks D.T. has caught up with C.C. this year, but I think, he still thinks C.C. is better but personally I'd back D.T. everytime with ease/soft in the ground and C.C. with firm. I just hope it's genuine good ground on Saturday although with my bet I've been doing a rain dance :D
 
imagine said:
It's always seemed to me that CC's his favourite of the two and I just wonder if he thinks DT might just be the better horse at this stage of the season. On the other hand he might think DT has no chance of beating CC so he wanted to try and win the French race rather than take on CC.
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I think the former is the more likely, I used to have a pretty decent line into the yard (should pick up again once the yard roars into motion) and he said that the yard itself was pretty divided with Hannon Snr thinking CC was the superior horse and Hannon Jnr thinking DT was his equal and Hughes wasn't convinced either. That was back in August/September before CC was pulled out of the QE2.

Either way, whilst there are extremes of opinions on this forum (myself and Steve as examples), there is no doubt that the difference in price is far too exaggerated given their profiles.
 
swedish chef said:
I believe Canford Cliffs is the better horse when there's firm in the ground and Dick Turpin when there's soft in the ground. When it's genuine good ground then there's not a lot between them imo.
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That's probably the best summary of the debate and the most accurate observation on the thread to be fair. The Greenham, Guineas, SJP, Sussex and Foret pretty much support this theory.
 
Gamla Stan said:
Twelve months ago everyone was saying how Paco Boy would turn her over, he didn't and Canford never will either.
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The difference between Canford and Paco is gaping.

Anyway I've put down a marker at 10/11 and will go in hard at any improvement on this. Canford is brimming with class. I'm genuinely sorry for those that can't see it.
 
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swedish chef said:
I believe Canford Cliffs is the better horse when there's firm in the ground and Dick Turpin when there's soft in the ground. When it's genuine good ground then there's not a lot between them imo. I was told before the Greenham last year to do a r/f/c because they couldn't separate them on homework. I'm sure C.C. was fancied to finish in front in the 2,000Guineas but I'm not convinced the official going of G/F was correct that day. I also have a feeling that C.C. likes the fast Summer ground and didn't really get that until Ascot last year. I know that had it of come up g/s or soft in the Sussex last year then D.T. would have run and not C.C.

I also agree C.C. put up better performances than D.T. last year and should be considered the better horse but the Lockinge will be run in the spring on genuine good ground and D.T. has proved his well-being - C.C. could be vulnerable and although reports are positive he still has it to prove.

Dick Turpin did get very close to Goldikova last year but that was on his preferred ground with soft in it, ground I'm convinced does not suit Goldikova so the fact she won showed what a superstar mare she is. Ryan Moore was instructed to get out and be up with or make the pace something D.T. was incapable of in the soft last year and I'm not sure if it was becuse of a long season or because of the ground.

Richard Hughes has mentioned this season that he thinks D.T. has caught up with C.C. this year, but I think, he still thinks C.C. is better but personally I'd back D.T. everytime with ease/soft in the ground and C.C. with firm. I just hope it's genuine good ground on Saturday although with my bet I've been doing a rain dance :D
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Good post.
 
Agreed - Good summary Swedish.

SteveM, I think everyone knows Canford has class - It's more a question of does DT have a similar amount...
 
Aragorn said:
Agreed - Good summary Swedish.

SteveM, I think everyone knows Canford has class - It's more a question of does DT have a similar amount...
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Indeed, just because DT isn't as flashy as CC doesn't mean he isn't as good as him. Apparently the yard are making noises that they think DT could turn him over.
 
Aragorn said:
SteveM, I think everyone knows Canford has class - It's more a question of does DT have a similar amount...
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Indeed so... I believe their is no comparison. DT is entitled to run in Group races and is a talented and honest horse. Canford is in a different bracket, being one of the true contenders to the classiest milers we have seen.
 
Gamla Stan said:
Hannon has his stable favourites and loves talking horses up. He's a fantastic trainer but his propoganda is absurd.

Goldikova is consistent, she's consistently beat every single miler put infront of her since July 2008 with the exception of Makfi (Excuses for that with the ground and I still maintain Makfi was a top class animal away from Ascot). I'm not sure how you can really over rate such a fantastic achievement.

Twelve months ago everyone was saying how Paco Boy would turn her over, he didn't and Canford never will either.
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Goldikova only has a dislike of soft ground in your mind though Stan..unless the wins on 2/8/09 + 3/10/10 are a mistake in her form

again you display the..shes consistent so she must be more highly rated than what she has actually achieved..argument..doesn't wash with me..or anyone else here who consistenly gave Best Mate & ROG ratings below what is ultra top class..simply because although they were regular as clockwork..the ratings didn't warrant them being "fawned over" status

G has shown on a number of occasions she is about a length..being generous there... better than PB..he isn't as consistent as G but at his best he is not far behind her..his rating has been 124 since God were a lad so its not possible to make G any higher than a 127

G is a superb horse..but nowhere near the rating you suggest
 
Gamla Stan said:
Dick Turpin's 3rd to Goldikova is much more recent than Canford's Sussex and that is top class Group One form.
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hardly top class..CC has bettered that run comfy

PB is a 124 horse..so G is a 125 on that run and DT has run to his OHR of 124 as well..thats good solid mile form..its not out of any top drawer

you are way to in love with the lady to make sensible judgements by the looks of it:)
 
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EC1 said:
Goldikova only has a dislike of soft ground in your mind though Stan..unless the wins on 2/8/09 + 3/10/10 are a mistake in her form

again you display the..shes consistent so she must be more highly rated than what she has actually achieved..argument..doesn't wash with me..or anyone else here who consistenly gave Best Mate & ROG ratings below what is ultra top class..simply because although they were regular as clockwork..the ratings didn't warrant them being "fawned over" status

G has shown on a number of occasions she is about a length..being generous there... better than PB..he isn't as consistent as G but at his best he is not far behind her..his rating has been 124 since God were a lad so its not possible to make G any higher than a 127

G is a superb horse..but nowhere near the rating you suggest
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What rating would you give Goldikova's performance in the 2009 Jacques le Marois, EC1? I can't see how that performance does warrant a mark of 130, at the very least. That form is absolutely bombproof, imo. She was on another level that day.
 
trackside528 said:
What rating would you give Goldikova's performance in the 2009 Jacques le Marois, EC1? I can't see how that performance does warrant a mark of 130, at the very least. That form is absolutely bombproof, imo. She was on another level that day.
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Stan didn't quote that race though :D

she may well be a 130..but I'll just ask this question..IF CC had run against PB like G has..how many on here would rate CC a 130 horse for just bettering PB

i'll answer..just one..Steve;)

its no use folk saying in one breath....oh PB's not top class..then keep saying a horse that has shown to be just a bit better..is some fookin world beater..its not consistent argument is it?

people get too attached to horses imo and start talking out their arses trying to bump the ratings up all the time..then with osses they aren't as impressed with..they do exactly the opposite...its been the case on this forum ever since i started reading it.

if folk want to believe that CC is some mid twenties overrated animal..then let them beilieve it

there is no point arguing with biased people..they will tell you black is white in defence of ther loved horses
 
The Jacques race

G beat Aqlaam by 6 lengths..two runs later RVW beat Aqlaam nearly 15 lengths

so which Aqlaam turned up on which day?..or is that Aqlaam at best on both runs?..or did Aqlaam run below form on both days

can't see its bombproof tbh

Aqlaam looks the complete OXO horse to me..runs well..runs below..runs well
 
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About Canford in the Lockinge,
he is what I call a genuine lay bet, in fact win and place lay at the prices.

Twice Over , Dick Turpin , Cityscape and the italian horse have chances to ebat him , especially with all of them having a run in the season.
 
I'm going to try and find this 130 race ..Jacques race isn't it imo

last seasons runs

beat 124 rated Byword 0.5 lengths..G = 125
beat 124 rated PB nk.....G = 125
beat 118 rated Music Show 3 lengths ....G = 125
behind Makfi..beat PB nk....G = 125
beat PB 0.5 len...G = 125
beat 121 rated Gio Ponti by 1.75 len...G = 125

bit of a pattern there..think its 125 ;)
 
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