cricketfan
At the Start
Unfortunately for the McCanns, some proper news came up and they were shoved off the front page. I really hope they get their daughter back, but this is reaching Diana-in-Paris-Car-Crash proportions.
Madeleine Mccann
- Thread starter Colin Phillips
- Start date
I agree that the publicity is possibly counter-productive esp if she has been kidnapped by a paedophile ring. However, what else are the parents to do but keep her in the public mind, and try to widen knowledge that she is missing, since the Portuguese police allowed too much time to elapse before taking this seriously, esp in respect of closing the borders. Cars and vans were crossing into Spain unexamined, long after the time-frame for driving over since the abduction. So far as the high profile goes, they may be damned if they do, but they will surely be damned if they don't put her face around. The police have no real leads.
The thinking behind the jockeys' highlighting the missing child - it was Martin Dwyer's idea, he has two small kids - is that she has almost certainly been taken out of Portugal, and poss out of Europe; and since the Derby is watched by millions worldwide, their attempt to raise awareness might lead to someone somewhere recognising her, who hadn't previously known she was a missing kid. It's a shame that their action has been publicised before the event - such consciousness raising stunts are always best sprung as a surprise.
The main problem in all this is the ludicrous secrecy law governing any criminal investigation in Portugal. It's led to a total failure to convey accurate information which might have led to an early lead, with the inevitable consequent proliferation of rumour and counter-rumour. It seems the police there knew within hours that a man was seen near the supermarket carrying a blond child answerering Madeleine's description - yet this news has only just come out in the last two days [via pressure from Gordon Brown, apparently.
If the dogs did track her to the supermarket then lose her scent, this would tally surely with her having walked that far then having been carried off somewhere. The woman who claims to have seen a blond child at a Moroccan filling station with a dark skinned man, asking for her mother, is convinced it was her, and I'd be inclined to believe her.
Finally, yes I too have read [in an in-depth study in the Sunday Telegraph iirc] that there is a long entrenched paedophile sub-culture in Portugal, mainly British and well-known to British police, that was attracted there by the very secrecy laws which have bedevilled this investigation. Whether the child and her parents - and their habits - were being cased before the event, or whether one of these perverts happened to see her alone near the supermarket, I doubt we shall ever know.
The Pro's information is truly chilling; but after the Belgian horror-show we have to accept that anything can happen. No wonder none of us trusts politicans.
The thinking behind the jockeys' highlighting the missing child - it was Martin Dwyer's idea, he has two small kids - is that she has almost certainly been taken out of Portugal, and poss out of Europe; and since the Derby is watched by millions worldwide, their attempt to raise awareness might lead to someone somewhere recognising her, who hadn't previously known she was a missing kid. It's a shame that their action has been publicised before the event - such consciousness raising stunts are always best sprung as a surprise.
The main problem in all this is the ludicrous secrecy law governing any criminal investigation in Portugal. It's led to a total failure to convey accurate information which might have led to an early lead, with the inevitable consequent proliferation of rumour and counter-rumour. It seems the police there knew within hours that a man was seen near the supermarket carrying a blond child answerering Madeleine's description - yet this news has only just come out in the last two days [via pressure from Gordon Brown, apparently.
If the dogs did track her to the supermarket then lose her scent, this would tally surely with her having walked that far then having been carried off somewhere. The woman who claims to have seen a blond child at a Moroccan filling station with a dark skinned man, asking for her mother, is convinced it was her, and I'd be inclined to believe her.
Finally, yes I too have read [in an in-depth study in the Sunday Telegraph iirc] that there is a long entrenched paedophile sub-culture in Portugal, mainly British and well-known to British police, that was attracted there by the very secrecy laws which have bedevilled this investigation. Whether the child and her parents - and their habits - were being cased before the event, or whether one of these perverts happened to see her alone near the supermarket, I doubt we shall ever know.
The Pro's information is truly chilling; but after the Belgian horror-show we have to accept that anything can happen. No wonder none of us trusts politicans.
I imagine that the audience with the Pope was to highlight to a mainly Catholic country, based around family, how unforgivable this act of abduction is if perpetrated by Catholics. I think that the Catholic Church is sending out a signal that if whoever has taken the girl is a Catholic, that they can expect hellfire and damnation from now on. Perhaps they're hoping for a confession to reveal all.
About the Moroccan stuff - oh, come on! You see a blonde girl calling - presumably in English - for her Mother, in the company of a man who clearly doesn't appear to be related to her, and you do NOTHING but NOTE it? First of all, how very convenient that the child was calling just when you stopped by. Then, the kid is out in the open for anyone to see. And she's blonde? Well, believe it or not, folks, those darn Ay-rabs have been known to intermarry with Caucasians and beget light-skinned and even blonde haired little kids! Wouldn't it have been a bonzer wheeze to have just gone over to the kid, and chatted with her? :brows:
About the Moroccan stuff - oh, come on! You see a blonde girl calling - presumably in English - for her Mother, in the company of a man who clearly doesn't appear to be related to her, and you do NOTHING but NOTE it? First of all, how very convenient that the child was calling just when you stopped by. Then, the kid is out in the open for anyone to see. And she's blonde? Well, believe it or not, folks, those darn Ay-rabs have been known to intermarry with Caucasians and beget light-skinned and even blonde haired little kids! Wouldn't it have been a bonzer wheeze to have just gone over to the kid, and chatted with her? :brows:
The woman - who was Norwegian - had no idea a blond child wqas missing. If you see a child looking miserable and asking if she can please see her mummy soon [in English] you imagine she's with a family member or friend - 99.9% of the time correctly. The woman only put two and two together when she was exposed to all the publicity. Of course you wouldn't approach them, in such circumstances, unlkess you ALREADY knew there was a child missing who looked like that
You've a good point about the Catholic pressure; but i think she's been taken be people beyond conscience
You've a good point about the Catholic pressure; but i think she's been taken be people beyond conscience
So the information about the missing girl hadn't reached the news in Morocco, I take it. Okay, it helps to have the full story to hand, of course! Sorry, I'd still be interested in why a blonde girl was with a (presumably) Moroccan man and asking in ENGLISH for her Mummy. Why would the child be out in the open, for anyone to see, if she was the abductee, though? Where in Morocco, by the way?
I'd be going berserk, I think - racing around all the embassies, newspapers, radio and tv stations, anywhere I thought might be able to help to find my child. I can't imagine the reality of this most unreal situation. You tuck three kids up in bed and go off to have a meal... the disbelief must've been heart-stopping.
Little girls need to have a wee of course! - and the odd snack etc, and are probably more manageable if not confined, ie the kid's not screaming non-stop. I guess if this was her, the guy holding her hand didn't expect anyone to question what he was doing. The report only said they were seen at a garage presumably on one of the main roads.
Btw, the woman said she did think the situation a bit odd, and has been tearing herself apart ever since for NOT interfering. But it's human instinct isn't it to question whether to interfere or to mind your own business? - and by the time you've made your mind up the moment has often passed
It would be very odd if the Moroccan were a local to the area and the garage owner didn't later report to the police that Abdul-Aziz had been in with a little blonde girl, wouldn't it? Especially with the huge reward to claim. If she were spotted in a big city, then there'd be no guarantee that the garage owner would know the man, of course, but you'd still think he'd have come forward by now, since I'm sure the Moroccan papers are full of the abduction if the finger is being pointed their way as a possible landfall. If the Norwegian could indicate the garage, it's not that difficult to question the owner and any staff about the sighting.
It could be that he's just the driver for an expat family, bringing the child back or taking her to playschool or a visit to friends. Plenty of them around the Middle East, and a 'dark skin' doesn't mean he's necessarily Moroccan, either. If the Moroccan police are alert now to the possibility that Maddy is in their country, it wouldn't be too difficult to trace the male employees of expat families, embassy staff, etc. and check them - and the kids - out. If any had blonde daughters of Maddy's age, the Norwegian could be asked to look at photos to see if any resembled her or not.
It could be that he's just the driver for an expat family, bringing the child back or taking her to playschool or a visit to friends. Plenty of them around the Middle East, and a 'dark skin' doesn't mean he's necessarily Moroccan, either. If the Moroccan police are alert now to the possibility that Maddy is in their country, it wouldn't be too difficult to trace the male employees of expat families, embassy staff, etc. and check them - and the kids - out. If any had blonde daughters of Maddy's age, the Norwegian could be asked to look at photos to see if any resembled her or not.
Morocco only presents the most logical escape route. That she might have been spotted in a petrol station Kriz is easily explained. Cars, run out of petrol. I tend to agree with Headstrong here. If you were unaware of the missing person story, and the authorities seem to have been particularly dilatory in spotting the obvious Moroccan possibility (my God if I could, then I'm concerned they couldn't) then it would require a massive leap of spontaneous faith to go and challenge someone. I'm pretty certain most of us, if suddenly confronted with such a situation, wouldn't. If you knew of the girls disappearence, you might.
That all of the most recent credible sightings have centred on Morocco is probably no coincidence, but that noone has come forward in the last 2 weeks probably tells us all we need to know I'm afraid.
That all of the most recent credible sightings have centred on Morocco is probably no coincidence, but that noone has come forward in the last 2 weeks probably tells us all we need to know I'm afraid.
"Centred on Morocco" - er, exactly WHERE in Morocco? It's not the size of the Isle of Skye, is it? Marrakesh? A little village in the hillisides? A seaside resort? This is very woolly stuff indeed if reporters can't come up with better than 'centred on Morocco'. The word 'centred' in itself makes no sense. "Centred on Great Britain" - wtf would that mean in the reverse case?
uncle goober
At the Start
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2005
- Messages
- 1,277
Please remove this entire thread on the grounds that it is the subject of a police investigation
Madeleine: Mystery call sparks new lead hope
07/06/2007 - 13:58:47
A mystery phone call from a man claiming to know the whereabouts of missing Madeleine McCann could provide a new lead in the case, it emerged today.
The caller provided such detail that Kate and Gerry McCann put their European search for their daughter on hold in case they needed to act.
The couple were informed of the potential development while in Germany, where they were appealing for information about their four-year-old child.
It is 35 days since Madeleine was abducted from her bed in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz.
The “credible” call was taken from a man who wanted to speak directly to the McCanns, according to a Spanish police source.
It was traced to an unregistered pay-as-you-go phone from an unidentified country but not thought to be Morocco, where a previous possible sighting of Madeleine was reported.
The caller did not reveal his identity or nationality, but the information was considered important enough to alert Mr and Mrs McCann, the source said.
At around 3pm yesterday, the couple – who were about to go to Tempelhof airport in Berlin to fly on to the Netherlands – were advised that the caller might try to contact them, so they stayed on at the British embassy.
At 6pm, journalists travelling in the eight-seater private jet with the McCanns were told by the flight crew that there might be a change in destination.
They revealed they had been asked to draw up a new flight plan involving a possible change from Amsterdam to East Midlands Airport.
It was thought the McCanns might need to go back to the UK to talk to advisers about the call.
But all efforts to re-establish contact with the man failed and the couple decided to go on to Amsterdam.
They left Berlin at 7.30pm, three hours later than planned, for the hour-long flight to Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam to continue their search.
Mr and Mrs McCann are thought to be on standby, ready to return to the UK if necessary.
A Spanish police source said: “A man called saying he knew where Madeleine was and wanted to speak to the McCanns.
“This did not appear to be a crank call and the information was felt credible enough to warrant the couple being informed immediately.
“They were in Berlin preparing to fly to Amsterdam but were advised to delay take-off.
“The situation was so critical that it was felt they could not afford to be out of touch on the plane, even for an hour during the short flight.”
The above from Breaking news.. website
And Sky news just full the breaking news Of Ms Hiltons possible early release!! such is the fickle nature of the news media judging what is of public interest!!
My gut instinct is that this is more likely to be a cruel hoax, or that the call has never been placed at all. The insistance to wish to speak to the family seems inconsistent to my mind, and it's as if the callers taunting them.
If it were someone connected with the kipnapping then the sensible thing to do would have been to allow a misleading trail to develop, nothing too specific but something that directed attention into the wrong country etc and I wouldn't totally discount that possibility.
They've clearly gone to lengths to ensure that the call couldn't be traced accurately, so for whatever reason the caller doesn't want to be found, which seems strange with the reward on offer.
If it's someone whose genuinely seen or knows something though, why wouldn't they speak to the police?. Well the obvious answer is that they'd be scarred of retribution from the kidnappers, but the McCanns are hardly able to offer a safe house/ change of identity, so again I'm struggling to think what possible motive the caller would have in seeking a direct dialogue with them given that they are the least well placed to secure their annonymity and safety. Again you find yourself thinking that it's a cruel hoaxer.
I'm sure the police will have been on the look-out for such calls though, as such cases notoriously attract them, and in all probability they've already fielded a fair few. Clearly they've said something though that marks this one out? There's certainly enough information about the girl floating around the media for someone to have gleaned enough to make it sound as if they knew her. I can only assume they've passed on a detail which hasn't been put into the public domain therefore? I don't know? a behavioural trait I'm assuming, rather than a physical characteristic or something that cross references with something that similarly hasn't been put in the public arena, given that the girl will clearly be able to speak at the age of 4.
It sounds like a hoax to my limited powers of deduction and one that might originate much nearer to home if its been able to invoke information that would require a degree of knowledge. If it is, then attention seeking hoaxers tend to come back for more once they've satisfied their initial lust. We'll see.
The other possibility of course, would involve the idea that the call has never been placed at all and the whole thing is a wheeze. I wouldn't discount this either.
Think about it logically? If the call has been placed, by a presumebly nervous individual who knows her whereabouts, why on earth would you risk,
a) Alerting the kidnappers that one of their own might be about to grass you up etc
b) Making an already nervous source even more nervous
I'm sure the kidnappers if they harboured any suspicions about their own gang would pretty quickly be able to identify their weakest link, or most likely weakest link and take steps to silence them, thus meaning that you'd only enhance the prospects of cutting off the supply of what you might otherwise regard as your best source of info, by going public with this.
I can't help wondering therefore if it isn't the police playing a few mind games and trying to provoke the kidnappers into an inappropriate action, either murdering their most likely weak link etc, breaking cover and moving the girl to another location, which might offer a chance of a sighting, or even abandoning her in a panic. I note that they can't identify the country (or won't identify the country) I'm not sure how you read that. If they had something they knew to be correct they could advertise it thus, in the knowledge that they'd be turning the heat up on the kidnappers. If they hadn't got anything though, taking a guess, would only alert those who knew where she was, that the police didn't and thus render the whole exercise pointless.
I seem to remember a case a few years back where some under 16 girlie ran away with a GI she'd met in a chat room. Mobile phone records pointed to them being in Germany, yet the police went through an extensive mock search and media campaign centred on Paris, even though they knew this to be wrong, but the object was to avoid alerting the pair that they were closing in on them, and lull them into a false sense of security etc. If it is a carefully crafted press release therefore along these lines, the fact that Morocco is the only country mentioned, and seemingly ruled out, might even be indication that, that is precisely where they're looking.
Or am I trying to hard and going mad shrug::
If it were someone connected with the kipnapping then the sensible thing to do would have been to allow a misleading trail to develop, nothing too specific but something that directed attention into the wrong country etc and I wouldn't totally discount that possibility.
They've clearly gone to lengths to ensure that the call couldn't be traced accurately, so for whatever reason the caller doesn't want to be found, which seems strange with the reward on offer.
If it's someone whose genuinely seen or knows something though, why wouldn't they speak to the police?. Well the obvious answer is that they'd be scarred of retribution from the kidnappers, but the McCanns are hardly able to offer a safe house/ change of identity, so again I'm struggling to think what possible motive the caller would have in seeking a direct dialogue with them given that they are the least well placed to secure their annonymity and safety. Again you find yourself thinking that it's a cruel hoaxer.
I'm sure the police will have been on the look-out for such calls though, as such cases notoriously attract them, and in all probability they've already fielded a fair few. Clearly they've said something though that marks this one out? There's certainly enough information about the girl floating around the media for someone to have gleaned enough to make it sound as if they knew her. I can only assume they've passed on a detail which hasn't been put into the public domain therefore? I don't know? a behavioural trait I'm assuming, rather than a physical characteristic or something that cross references with something that similarly hasn't been put in the public arena, given that the girl will clearly be able to speak at the age of 4.
It sounds like a hoax to my limited powers of deduction and one that might originate much nearer to home if its been able to invoke information that would require a degree of knowledge. If it is, then attention seeking hoaxers tend to come back for more once they've satisfied their initial lust. We'll see.
The other possibility of course, would involve the idea that the call has never been placed at all and the whole thing is a wheeze. I wouldn't discount this either.
Think about it logically? If the call has been placed, by a presumebly nervous individual who knows her whereabouts, why on earth would you risk,
a) Alerting the kidnappers that one of their own might be about to grass you up etc
b) Making an already nervous source even more nervous
I'm sure the kidnappers if they harboured any suspicions about their own gang would pretty quickly be able to identify their weakest link, or most likely weakest link and take steps to silence them, thus meaning that you'd only enhance the prospects of cutting off the supply of what you might otherwise regard as your best source of info, by going public with this.
I can't help wondering therefore if it isn't the police playing a few mind games and trying to provoke the kidnappers into an inappropriate action, either murdering their most likely weak link etc, breaking cover and moving the girl to another location, which might offer a chance of a sighting, or even abandoning her in a panic. I note that they can't identify the country (or won't identify the country) I'm not sure how you read that. If they had something they knew to be correct they could advertise it thus, in the knowledge that they'd be turning the heat up on the kidnappers. If they hadn't got anything though, taking a guess, would only alert those who knew where she was, that the police didn't and thus render the whole exercise pointless.
I seem to remember a case a few years back where some under 16 girlie ran away with a GI she'd met in a chat room. Mobile phone records pointed to them being in Germany, yet the police went through an extensive mock search and media campaign centred on Paris, even though they knew this to be wrong, but the object was to avoid alerting the pair that they were closing in on them, and lull them into a false sense of security etc. If it is a carefully crafted press release therefore along these lines, the fact that Morocco is the only country mentioned, and seemingly ruled out, might even be indication that, that is precisely where they're looking.
Or am I trying to hard and going mad shrug::
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 24,881
If they read this forum, they'll know what's happening. 
May be AC. It just doesn't make any sense though. If you really thought you had a source who might be going to give you a precise location, why on earth would jeopardise this by putting the information in the public domain and alert the kidnappers, thus giving them the chance of moving the girl and start the whole search thing all over again?
Unless.......
You were trying to spook them into doing precisely that
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Television seems to have lost interest to some extent, but I see that the McCanns have been in Morocco but are now going back to Portugal and intend staying there for the rest of the summer.
Can there be any hope that the child will be found alive?
Can there be any hope that the child will be found alive?
K
Kathy
Guest
Letter claims Madeleine is 'buried under rocks'
By Natalie Paris and agencies
Last Updated: 3:55pm BST 13/06/2007
Portuguese police have begun searching an area of scrubland for missing toddler Madeleine McCann, after a tip-off was received by a Dutch newspaper.
Madeleine's parents make an appeal in Morocco
An anonymous letter claiming that the four-year-old lies buried under rocks in a deserted area was sent to De Telegraaf along with a map.
It was thought to pinpoint scrubland north of Odiaxere, north east of the resort at Praia da Luz where the girl was snatched 41 days ago.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa said the information was being taken seriously and "everything necessary" was being done to validate the allegation.
"There have been exchanges between Dutch police and us," he said.
"The information indicated an area 15km from the place of the disappearance of the little child.
"We are checking the information like we check everything in this case for importance."
When asked if the search involved digging, he said: "If the information gives us a precise location where we can look, we will do it."
According to De Telegraaf, the letter said Madeleine was buried "north of the road under branches and rocks, around six to seven metres off the road" in barren land.
The newspaper said the map was marked with crosses.