Miling Division 2010

Hamm said:
What does might have got to do with it though? Zarkava didn't stay in training, and Goldikova has since progressed past her, hence has proven herself to be the better horse, not to forget the more durable, and has won in England and America.
Click to expand...

Exactly, when Zarkava was beating Goldikova, Goldikova was struggling to beat the likes of Halfwaytoheaven (admirable filly that she was).

To me Goldikova has always got better as the season progresses and this year looks to be no different.

Someone else was right to mention, if this was O'Brien, Fabre or Stoute training her we should be hearing how great a training performance it was by them to keep her sweet and on the go. Great achievement by Head.
 
Hamm said:
What does might have got to do with it though? Zarkava didn't stay in training, and Goldikova has since progressed past her, hence has proven herself to be the better horse, not to forget the more durable, and has won in England and America.
Click to expand...


1 How can she be said to be the better horse ? Have we any evidence analysing Zarkava's physical development suggesting that she would not have improved to 4 and 5 ?

2 How is she more durable ? Zarkava did not have the chance to show herself as more durable .

3 She also won in England and America - how is that a judgment of comparative ability .

It is not to minimise her achievements or to say that she is not a great horse - she plainly is a phenomenal animal but comparing horses with those that beat them and have since retired on the basis they have since achieved higher ratings strikes me as a futile exercise

All you can say is that on your ratings she has at 4 and 5 achieved higher scores than Zarkava did in the Pouliches . So what .

No doubt someone will be suggesting that Harbinger is a better horse than STS next .:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Ardross said:
1 How can she be said to be the better horse ? Have we any evidence analysing Zarkava's physical development suggesting that she would not have improved to 4 and 5 ?
Click to expand...

You have to go on what they have actually achieved...Goldikova has to be rated the higher of the pair. It is not Zarkava's fault that she retired, connections are to blame for that, but like any three year old retired, they leave themselves open to be surpassed the following year.

It would be a bit like saying that if Captain Cee Bee never raced again after his Supreme Hurdle win, we could never saying Binocular was the best horse in that race regardless of how many Champion Hurdles he won.
 
Hardly , the same is it - a novice hurdle and a classic . In any event it proceeds on the basis that the retired horse reached the full potential of their ability .

If Binocular had to be retired and KK wins the next two CH's and achieves a higher rating it makes him a higher rated but not the better horse.
 
Last edited:
Ardross said:
Hardly , the same is it - a novice hurdle and a classic .
Click to expand...

Goldikova is now 5....Zarkava faced her at the start of their three year old campaign. It is not that ideal a comparison but I think it gets the point across.

But look at the bare form, Zarkava beat Goldikova when Goldikova was all out to beat Halfwaytoheaven by less than two lengths while on their second clash Goldikova couldn't even beat Gagnoa! The rest of her form that year was very good, but not great, but she clearly stepped up considerably as a 4 year old.

On her bad days now she is beating Paco Boy and Byword by short enough distances. Like I said earlier - she gets better as the year goes on and I can only see either a bog or a bad draw in the States beating her.
 
Ardross said:
In any event it proceeds on the basis that the retired horse reached the full potential of their ability .
Click to expand...

No one says that is the "basis" but you cannot be giving a horse that has not run in over a year credit for something he has never achieved simply because a placed horse has improved. See it all the time, horse improve with age at different speeds/rates.
 
Rather than address all your points, I'll just second Galileo's response.

It is very strange you can't see how much Goldikova has improved and hence those 2 races with Zarkava are redundant for comparative purposes.

However, this

1 How can she be said to be the better horse ? Have we any evidence analysing Zarkava's physical development suggesting that she would not have improved to 4 and 5 ?
Click to expand...

is a bizarre statement.
 
Last edited:
sunybay said:
this is becoming surrealist

Finsceal 120
Music Show 110
Goldikova 120s
Elusive Wave 112

winners of gr1 in 110s

Goldikova beaten by Zarkava, suggesting the same Goldikova is this one to the one of the begining 3yo

sometimes I wonder why I reply to this kind of jokes.
Click to expand...


i can't really understand some of that

being questioned about your ratings isn't really a joke..its just questioning them

hasn't anyone done so before?

you seem a very grouchy person

my query was quite obvious I thought - basically you have overrated G on Sunday imo

you seem to think a horse is an automatic 120 if it wins a G1..this isn't always the case with fillies.

sorry for not just accepting as gospel what you rated G on Sunday - didn't mean to offend

i won't do it in future..so calm down :cool:
 
Hamm said:
Rather than address all your points, I'll just second Galileo's response.

It is very strange you can't see how much Goldikova has improved and hence those 2 races with Zarkava are redundant for comparative purposes.

However, this



is a bizarre statement.
Click to expand...

With respect , it is bizarre to assume that Zarkava could not have improved to remain ahead of Goldikova - you have no evidence that she could not have done so .
 
Ardross said:
With respect , it is bizarre to assume that Zarkava could not have improved to remain ahead of Goldikova - you have no evidence that she could not have done so .
Click to expand...

No one is presuming that or has said that - we are talking about what they achieved on the track. If I thought Zarkava could run to 150 I would be just as quickly put in my place.
 
Galileo said:
Goldikova is now 5....Zarkava faced her at the start of their three year old campaign. It is not that ideal a comparison but I think it gets the point across.

But look at the bare form, Zarkava beat Goldikova when Goldikova was all out to beat Halfwaytoheaven by less than two lengths while on their second clash Goldikova couldn't even beat Gagnoa! The rest of her form that year was very good, but not great, but she clearly stepped up considerably as a 4 year old.

On her bad days now she is beating Paco Boy and Byword by short enough distances. Like I said earlier - she gets better as the year goes on and I can only see either a bog or a bad draw in the States beating her.
Click to expand...


A Prix de Rothschild Prix Moulin and a Breeders Cup Mile - good but not great:rolleyes:

Zarkava meanwhile was evidently not progressing either as she won the Arc.
 
Ardross said:
With respect , it is bizarre to assume that Zarkava could not have improved to remain ahead of Goldikova - you have no evidence that she could not have done so .
Click to expand...

this thread is just turning into - lets over-rate Goldikova..you wasting your time Ardross

Goldikova is a bloody good filly..but trying to make out Sundays jaunt was a 130+ effort is over egging an already full omelete

she may well be a 135 filly as far as I know..but on paper thats not the case for the last win

PB nearly beat her at Ascot - so thats not her best run so I am told..mmm..there's me thinking she would have had to be one hell of a horse to better that run...as the way she took 4 or 5 length out of that field 1.5/2f out was bloody awesome
 
Last edited:
Ardross said:
A Prix de Rothschild Prix Moulin and a Breeders Cup Mile - good but not great:rolleyes:

Zarkava meanwhile was evidently not progressing either as she won the Arc.
Click to expand...

Relative to what she achieved as a 4 year old, her successes in each of those races was someway inferior...like I said good but not great in terms of form relatively speaking.

As for Zarkava not improving - you seem to be the only one repeating that. Clearly Zarkava did improve through out her 3 year old campaign - like most top class three year olds do.
 
I do not see why you are trying to make this confrontational? I have an opinion, Ardross and you have another. I am happy to debate it without the need to feel like anyone is wasting their time.

EC1 said:
this thread is just turning into - lets over-rate Goldikova..you wasting your time Ardross

Goldikova is a bloody good filly..but trying to make out Sundays jaunt was a 130+ effort is over egging an already full omelete

she may well be a 135 filly as far as I know..but on paper thats not the case for the last win

PB nearly beat her at Ascot - so thats not her best run so I am told..mmm..there's me thinking she would have had to be one hell of a horse to better that run...as the way she took 4 or 5 length out of that field 1.5/2f out was bloody awesome
Click to expand...
 
Galileo said:
I do not see why you are trying to make this confrontational? I have an opinion, Ardross and you have another. I am happy to debate it without the need to feel like anyone is wasting their time.
Click to expand...

here we go - i'm making something confrontational - and yet Sunybay posts to me like i'm a moron on two occasions..nowt said

this is the sort of thing that we were talking about on that deleted thread..some members here treating people like dickheads - never anything said..me..jumped on for being confrontational

come on - its a Goldikova fest here..i were only saying
 
Last edited:
EC1 said:
here we go - i'm making something confrontational - and yet Sunybay posts to me like i'm a moron on two occasions..nowt said

this is the sort of thing that we were talking about on that deleted thread..some members here treating people like dickheads - never anything said..me..jumped on for being confrontational

come on - its a Goldikova fest here..i were only saying
Click to expand...

You were more than able to deal with our suny spaniard yourself, I was addressing you as I presumed you were referring to me talking up Goldikova. Something which I am more than happy to discuss....if it is a discussion you want.
 
in fact - its getting that you can't question owt here these days if its posted by the in crowd - else you get all the others running out defending the poor questioned member

i'm ready for a break from posting again

i'll just read the board for a bit - its less hassle
 
Anyone know if the RP has come back with a rating for her French win?

*Edited the title as the thread I will run through the French and QEII races now.
 
Galileo said:
As for Zarkava not improving - you seem to be the only one repeating that. Clearly Zarkava did improve through out her 3 year old campaign - like most top class three year olds do.
Click to expand...

Well exactly which is why to say that Goldikova is a " better " horse than Zarkava is inaccurate . She might well have received a higher rating but when a horse goes off to stud before they have a chance to compete at 4 and 5 that does not make the horse that does stay in training the " better " horse .
 
Ardross said:
Well exactly which is why to say that Goldikova is a " better " horse than Zarkava is inaccurate . She might well have received a higher rating but when a horse goes off to stud before they have a chance to compete at 4 and 5 that does not make the horse that does stay in training the " better " horse .
Click to expand...

I disagree - Goldikova has proved she can get into the 130s, Zarkava may well have been capable of doing that but she never proved it - Zarkava could just as easily have not trained on like many do. It is unfair to the owners, trainers and the horse itself who is kept in training rather than taking the easy way of being packed off to stud.
 
Thats exactly what I think
Zarkava could have improved (for me unlikely) but didnt prove it,


Goldikova was also beaten by Azabara and that doesnt mean Azabara was a better horse.
 
Last edited:
Ardross, like you I'm firmly of the opinion that Zarkava was and would have been the better filly but it's difficult to argue against the facts. Agree to disagree, this argument has been gone over too many times.
 
The idea of backing anything against Zarkava would have been impossible for me. I am certain that she had more ability than Goldikova and was possibly the most talented filly ive seen.
 
Back
Top