Miling Division 2010

I agree Clive but there are plenty who would argue against it and really it's a moot point because we'll never know what would have happened; we can only go on what happened then even though thats not relevant either :)
 
clivex said:
The idea of backing anything against Zarkava would have been impossible for me. I am certain that she had more ability than Goldikova and was possibly the most talented filly ive seen.
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I have to agree with this. Goldikova is exceptional and the greatest miler around by a long way but Zarkava was something else, her Vermeille and Arc wins were just out of this world.
 
Indeed they were.

However, any possible comparison would be over a mile and Zarkava has the three quarters of a stone or so to find...
 
I am surprised they are going to run Goldikova in the Foret again. Paco Boy will be very difficult to beat back over 7f . Is he running in the Maurice du Gheest on Sunday ?
 
That's not a relevant or valid comparison though is it Hamm :) The only empirical information we have to go on is that Zarkava battered Goldikova. Twice.
 
Surely the most accurate thing to base this on is ratings? It is stretching things very far to say over a mile that Zarkava would have improved as much as she would have had to to be considered better than Goldikova?

Just using x horse beat y horse is much too primitive - there are horses that beat Sea the Stars on his debut - this doesn't mean they are better; extreme example, but it can be applied to any number of cases.
 
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Aragorn said:
That's not a relevant or valid comparison though is it Hamm :) The only empirical information we have to go on is that Zarkava battered Goldikova. Twice.
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By that logic Falco is in a different league to Paco Boy because he mullered him in the Poulains and was subsequently retired during (after?) his 3yo campaign.
 
trackside528 said:
By that logic Falco is in a different league to Paco Boy because he mullered him in the Poulains and was subsequently retired during (after?) his 3yo campaign.
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Paco Boy was almost knocked over in that race it is hardly a proper comparison with two comfortable defeats in classics where Goldikova had no excuses .
 
No excuses?? I'm not sure how much you 'get' very basic concepts in horse racing. Is Black Bear Island a better horse than Sea the Stars?

No-one said she had excuses. Plenty of people are saying she was nowhere near the horse then that she has turned out to be. The first race was her first attempt in a Group race (you hardly think this was her true form when you consider the proximity of the others in the race? She is around 7/8 lengths better than this, and has proven this (in stark contrast to Zarkava, who over a mile who has proven she is very good, and nothing else). She blatantly didn't stay in the second race so this is irrelevant for comparative purposes.

Anyone is entitled to their opinion that Zarkava may well have been better over a mile, but all the evidence shows it is Goldikova who was and is much the superior filly over this distance; I really don't see why this is so hard to understand, and find it infuriating people are using the French 1000 Guineas, not to mind the Diane (!), in trying to prove a point.
 
I don't understand what the row is here. Both fillies have got into the 130s, only Zarkava was more precocious and reached that level earlier in her career.
 
Hamm, your argument is surely self defeating? :)

I'm just on the wind up - Truth is we'll never agree.
 
Hamm said:
Other examples - was Footstepsinthesand a better horse than Dubawi?!
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At the time quite possibly but again unlike Goldikova Dubawi had an excuse for his defeat .

Dubawi was enormously overrated anyway as his caning by Starcraft showed.
 
What is an excuse? Isn't 'not fully developed' just as much an 'excuse' as the ground being too firm?

'Caning by Starcraft'

Oh dear. I suppose you believe then Dubawi was less than 2 lengths better than his own pacemaker? That race was a farce and to draw a definitive conclusion from it would be a mistake. Dubawi was the best miler in Europe that season..
 
Hamm said:
What is an excuse? Isn't 'not fully developed' just as much an 'excuse' as the ground being too firm?

'Caning by Starcraft'

Oh dear. I suppose you believe then Dubawi was less than 2 lengths better than his own pacemaker? That race was a farce and to draw a definitive conclusion from it would be a mistake. Dubawi was the best miler in Europe that season..
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Shamardal was the best miler in Europe that season by miles ! He would have thrashed Dubawi which is why they never met as Sheikh M and gang had a massive vested interest in hyping him up .

Silly really as Dubawi was always going to have access to a very good book of mares anyway and whether a stallion is successful when they have such a head start depends on the quality of their offspring not hype.
 
Sorry, forgot about Shamardal - was indeed better (and would have romped home in the Eclipse). Was thinking of those in Dubawi's races (Jacques le Marois and QE2).

Not sure what you mean by your second comment - is it that you think Dubawi was also favoured in the breeding shed? Hard to know who'll do better at this stage, but both look to have very bright futures..
 
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Ardross said:
Silly really as Dubawi was always going to have access to a very good book of mares anyway and whether a stallion is successful when they have such a head start depends on the quality of their offspring not hype.
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Its great to disagree with you once again

on Dubawis form in the Irish Guineas or JLM he was as good if not better than Shamardal.
 
No way ! Ask Mr Miller the guru of Shamardal fans .

A six length thrashing of Oratorio is better than anything Dubawi achieved . I am sure he would have beaten Dubawi very easily.
 
Dubawi was choosen for the toughtest races , Guineas, Derby and JLM (vs Agas horse, Divine P and Whipper)...etc

Shamardal was very good horse but the other was stable number one.
 
Dubawi was from the last crop of Dubai Millenium was he not? Whilst Shamardal was a Johnston trainee so Sheikh Mohammed was always going to favour Dubawi.
 
Shamardal suffered a career-ending injury in July of his 3-y-o season, there was nothing of the chosen one about either him or Dubawi. Shamardal was 'chosen' for the St James Palace.

Dubawi was from the only crop of Dubai Millennium.
 
Canford going for the QE2 next.

They don't seem to know the plan with Dick Turpin, they've said he might go for a group one or the Hungerford or a Group Two over 1m2f?! Hannon says if he ran in a group one, he'd be up against a good one (really?!) and probably one of his.

If I owned DT, I'd pull him out of that yard, he's a top class miler in his own right and is not being given the chance to prove himself because the Hannon's prefer the other two milers and don't want to run them against one another anymore so it seems.
 
If I owned DT, I'd pull him out of that yard, he's a top class miler in his own right and is not being given the chance to prove himself because the Hannon's prefer the other two milers and don't want to run them against one another anymore so it seems
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Totally agree, I would have done it sooner.
 
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