Netanyahu's victims

Hamas is the malignant bacteria/virus in an exposed area of the Israeli bear. Understandably the bear rips at the area when it is made sore. This perpetuates the problem.

I make no pretence of knowing all the facts but it would seem that the problem requires radical action rather than tinkering.

The Gaza strip is an unsustainable area for an independent state, is relatively fertile and would be an attractive place for Israeli settlers to live if it were to be incorporated within the borders of the Israeli state. I would guess that there are similar areas that are on other borders of the state, ie attractive places to live if free from constant strife. The Israelis might consider ceding one of these other areas to the people of Gaza and removing the existing Israeli population to Gaza. It would have to be a demonstrably 'fair' swap. Overseas money would be available to develop infrastructure in the new area which would have freedom of movement through access to which Arab states it bordered..

Gaza is a very small area, much smaller than most British counties Resettlement on a fair basis for its inhabitants would be less difficult than the resolution of many of the other issues in the region. It would also give the vast majority of people of Gaza an opportunity to live in relative peace.

Impossible, maybe, but the solution needs to be radical.
 
This Israeli government has given up even the pretence of looking for a just solution and wants victory instead. But as the securocrat tendency discovered in Northern Ireland, outright victory is impossible when two populations have to coexist. At this point the more the Israeli government look to crush and humiliate the Palestinians the more difficult it will be to achieve peace in the long run.
 
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As usual no blame attached to Hamas there. So predictable from certain quarters.

Incredible. and what solution is hamas looking for? Shall we look at their charter???

The hamas that cannot even keep to its own ceasefires? The one that demands a lifting of a blockade, by firing missiles?

The only way that there will be peace is if hamas booted out or has a radical change of tune. Israel will have to concede much too but lets not mention the palestinians previous responses to their demands? Ie Oslo

Sooner or later the palestinians will have to wake up to the fact that if you contimually fire missiles at another country...they might just react big time. Not exactly difficult to grasp is it?
 
Lets not get so carried away on emotion that we start using completely inaccurate and hysterical phrasing, Grey. Israel is not in any way intent on "crushing the Palestinians". You know it, I know it. That is a very unfair statement.
LUKE said:
How many Israelis have been killed by rockets in the last couple of years.
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Only a few, Luke, I'll grant you. But it is not for the want of trying by Hamas. They've launched thousands of rockets.
In truth, the low casualty rate of Israeli citizens is thanks to the "iron dome" defense shield system and the primitive rocketry being used by Hamas.
Consider if Hamas had the same military ability as the IDF -- the tanks, the planes, the guided missiles -- how many Israeli casualties would there be. And perish the thought if Hamas had Israel's nuclear capacity, given Hamas' stated aim to abolish the state of Israel, how many Israeli's would be left standing ?
 
Lets not get so carried away on emotion that we start using completely inaccurate and hysterical phrasing, Grey.
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I reject the suggestion that my language is inaccurate and hysterical. This Israeli government is trying to crush the will of the Palestinian people to offer resistance. They want to hit them so hard that they won't want to do it again. How else to explain 50+ revenge deaths for each death inflicted by Hamas et al on the Israeli population?

clivex, it is unreasonable to expect people to give their view of who should be blamed for what every time they try to offer comment. We would all have to start writing books before being allowed to speak. The immediate situation is that the Israeli government is using disproportionate means to punish civilians in Gaza for supporting Hamas, which has been firing rockets at Israel. Thankfully almost all of the rockets have been blocked, as both sides knew would happen. Hamas also knew that the Israeli government would respond very ferociously.

Why did Hamas go ahead anyway? Presumably because they reckoned the behaviour of the Israeli government would be so over the top that they would lose friends. And presumably Netanyahu and colleagues think they can put Hamas out of action for good by pursuing a military solution as long as the US continue to stand behind them.
 
clivex, it is unreasonable to expect people to give their view of who should be blamed for what every time they try to offer comment.
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Cop out

if they didnt fire missiles then they wouldnt be attacked. Difficult?

And the idea that hamas is firing missiles in the safe knowledge that no one will get hurt, is ridculous
 
Grey said:
Why did Hamas go ahead anyway? Presumably because they reckoned the behaviour of the Israeli government would be so over the top that they would lose friends.
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Which is quite appalling if you think about it.
In other words, Hamas, in full knowledge of the certain retribution from the Israelis, is prepared to sacrifice the lives of their own Palestinian brethren to score points in some propaganda strategy. In that case, then, Hamas is just as culpable for the deaths of their own citizens as any outside force. (Worse, since Hamas are the government of Gaza with the attentant responsibility and onus which that brings to protect the welfare and lives of its citizens).
 
Grey said:
I reject the suggestion that my language is inaccurate and hysterical. This Israeli government is trying to crush the will of the Palestinian people to offer resistance.
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Launching daily rocket barrages for months into Israel is "resistance" ??
Good grief.
 
icebreaker said:
Which is quite appalling if you think about it.
In other words, Hamas, in full knowledge of the certain retribution from the Israelis, is prepared to sacrifice the lives of their own Palestinian brethren to score points in some propaganda strategy. In that case, then, Hamas is just as culpable for the deaths of their own citizens as any outside force. (Worse, since Hamas are the government of Gaza with the attentant responsibility and onus which that brings to protect the welfare and lives of its citizens).
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Its not just that but any state anywhere in the world would be certain of a response if it fired thousands of missiles at a neighbour. wouldnt they?

Fcking hell..
 
clivex said:
Its not just that but any state anywhere in the world would be certain of a response if it fired thousands of missiles at a neighbour. wouldnt they?

Fcking hell..
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yes..i'd expect to be invaded..and the murderers killed...not the murderers left alive and all the women & kids killed

can't you see what response is needed?..a man's response..get in and fight for your country..instead of blowing kiddies up
 
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Although he doesn't address the current escalation which is appalling from both sides, Grey is absolutely spot on. Israel continues to annexe land in the West Bank with no right to do so and refuses to negotiate. Whereas the Palestinian Government continues to reiterate its desire to negotiate. It had already enforced a blockade in Gaza which means no electricity on top of abject poverty and whole communities literally starving. in addition it controls the water and restricted the 6 mile fishing zone to 3 miles. Literally blowing any fishing boat that encroached further out of the water. All this at the point where Gaza is verging on a humanitarian disaster.

Hammas can't keep the terrorists in order as Clive says but neither has the Israeli Army respected previous ceasefires on the southern border. In fact the Hammas missile strikes were triggered by Israel arresting/kidnapping hundreds of Hammas officials on top of the imposed blockade. What level of provocation do those of you making the provocative statements on here belive Gaza should take before it responds by the only means at its disposal I wonder? And are some of you really so naive that you are prepared to take sound bites to form your opinions rather than genuinely understand what is happening? Propaganda is a dangerous thing in the minds of lazy people.

Let me try and create some perspective rather than try to score points. If someone cut off my electric, threatened my family, took my food to the point of starvation, kidnapped my friends, and they kept on doing it and wouldn't listen to any reason, I think I may also be provoked into a violent response if all I had left was a gun. So Using Clive's eloquence. Difficult?!

As for a 'Hammas Charter'. Seriously! They have consistently stated their willingness to negotiate whereas the Israeli Government continues to advance further beyond its borders in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and claim land that isn't there's, continuing their intent to colonise Palestine. Netanyahu's Government have no intention to negotiate, and will not stop until they have full control of the West Bank and Gaza.

I'm not religious or have any affinity to either Country. Nor am I stupid. I have followed the history of this conflict closely, not just when it makes headlines, and Netenyahu makes Putin look like a pussycat.
 
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clivex said:
Have you any idea at all how many missiles have been and still are being fired at israel?

Suggest you look it up and think again
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Have you any idea how many Israelis have been killed by those thousands of rockets? Hamas' strike-rate has always been appalling anyway, and is next to zero now that the Israelis have successfully deployed their Iron Dome defence system.

I'm not in any way condoning Hamas approach, but you always justify this type of Israeli response by referencing the 'threat' posed by these Hamas rockets, when - to all practical intents - that threat is negligible. If we accept this premis, then we have to question whether Israel's response to that threat is proportionate or not. In my view it isn't.

Israel's position on this is wholly disingenuous; claiming it wants a lasting peace with Palestinians.....whilst carrying-out tactics which actively make that eventuality more remote.

Clivex's constant references to "jew-bating" are standard tactics we've seen before. It's much easier to justify Israel's position/ response - and avoid any more considered analysis of the problems in the Middle East - if you can conveniently play the 'anti-semitic' Joker, every time an opposing viewpoint is put forward.

That's why related threads always descend into either chaos or stalemate. This one will go the same way.
 
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Maruco said:
no electricity on top of abject poverty and whole communities literally starving. in addition it controls the water
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Why are the pro-Palestine posters on this thread so prone to exaggeration? Claims and statements such as above need to be challenged.
Israel continues to supply electricity to Gaza in spite of the current conflict, and in spite of The Palestinian Authority owing the Israel Electric Corp over $400 million for past consumption.
Water supply is the responsibility of the Palestinian Water Authority. Half the available water is lost due to leakage in the local distribution system. This allied with the failure to drill new wells is down to bad governance by the Palestinian government. Rather than building tunnels and setting up rocket launching sites, the Palestinian authority ( Hamas) would have served their citizens far better by using their resources to improve the general quality of life.
And "whole communities are literally starving"? Oh please. (That's an insult to the genuinely starving people in other parts of the world).

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Grasshopper said:
Have you any idea how many Israelis have been killed by those thousands of rockets? Hamas' strike-rate has always been appalling anyway, and is next to zero now that the Israelis have successfully deployed their Iron Dome defence system.

I'm not in any way condoning Hamas approach, but you always justify this type of Israeli response by referencing the 'threat' posed by these Hamas rockets, when - to all practical intents - that threat is negligible. If we accept this premis, then we have to question whether Israel's response to that threat is proportionate or not. In my view it isn't.

Israel's position on this is wholly disingenuous; claiming it wants a lasting peace with Palestinians.....whilst carrying-out tactics which actively make that eventuality more remote.

Clivex's constant references to "jew-bating" are standard tactics we've seen before. It's much easier to justify Israel's position/ response - and avoid any more considered analysis of the problems in the Middle East - if you can conveniently play the 'anti-semitic' Joker, every time an opposing viewpoint is put forward.

That's why related threads always descend into either chaos or stalemate. This one will go the same way.
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I stand by that. Take it or leave it.

So what do you suggest a state being targeted with thousands of missiles should do? Missiles that will inevitably extend in range?

Yes???

sit there and hope they go away?
 
icebreaker said:
Why are the pro-Palestine posters on this thread so prone to exaggeration? Claims and statements such as above need to be challenged.
Israel continues to supply electricity to Gaza in spite of the current conflict, and in spite of The Palestinian Authority owing the Israel Electric Corp over $400 million for past consumption.
Water supply is the responsibility of the Palestinian Water Authority. Half the available water is lost due to leakage in the local distribution system. This allied with the failure to drill new wells is down to bad governance by the Palestinian government. Rather than building tunnels and setting up rocket launching sites, the Palestinian authority ( Hamas) would have served their citizens far better by using their resources to improve the general quality of life.
And "whole communities are literally starving"? Oh please. (That's an insult to the genuinely starving people in other parts of the world).

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Again so true

But its not so much pro palestinian from some as a refusal to even attribute any blame on hamas. Which is telling.
 
clivex said:
Again so true

But its not so much pro palestinian from some as a refusal to even attribute any blame on hamas. Which is telling.
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this blame thing you have got tells more about your view Clive...from my perspective i see innocent people..kids..being massacred..i don't care what race they are..or what reasons/excuses are used to kill them..its wrong
 
icebreaker said:
Why are the pro-Palestine posters on this thread so prone to exaggeration? Claims and statements such as above need to be challenged.
Israel continues to supply electricity to Gaza in spite of the current conflict, and in spite of The Palestinian Authority owing the Israel Electric Corp over $400 million for past consumption.
Water supply is the responsibility of the Palestinian Water Authority. Half the available water is lost due to leakage in the local distribution system. This allied with the failure to drill new wells is down to bad governance by the Palestinian government. Rather than building tunnels and setting up rocket launching sites, the Palestinian authority ( Hamas) would have served their citizens far better by using their resources to improve the general quality of life.
And "whole communities are literally starving"? Oh please. (That's an insult to the genuinely starving people in other parts of the world).

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They aren't fit to govern themselves the basic argument used against Home Rule for Ireland 100 years ago.
 
clivex said:
I stand by that. Take it or leave it.

So what do you suggest a state being targeted with thousands of missiles should do? Missiles that will inevitably extend in range?

Yes???

sit there and hope they go away?
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Israel have run a blockade of Gaza since Hamas won the election in 2006, and Hamas response is entirely predictable, given they have no other collateral.

Again, I don't condone it, but I can sort of understand it, given the context.

Ice, I try not to be pro-Palestine or pro-Israeli. Aligning with one or the other usually means you refuse to accept the grievance of the other side....of which there are many, with varying degrees of justification.

In my view, Israel should be permitted to defend its borders. Unfortunately, it is defending 'borders' which are considered Occupied Territories under International law.....which tends to dilute that argument.

PS. We lose about 20% of water through leakage here in the UK; through wear-and-tear and incompetence on the part of our water companies. It's a patent nonsense to introduce that argument into a discussion about Gaza, and use it to demonstrate how useless or otherwise Hamas are in an adminstrative capacity.
 
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Not an answer grass. Incomprehebsible

lifting the blockade will stop the missiles? I think it us more likely to bring in more hardware?

Dont you think?

so your answer to hanas stopping the missiles is to let them have any hardware they desire
 
Hamas are not fit to govern .

The authoritarian violent bigoted jew/american hating administration will appeal to certain factions in the west but it is a disaster for the people they claim to represent
 
clivex said:
Not an answer grass. Incomprehebsible

lifting the blockade will stop the missiles? I think it us more likely to bring in more hardware?

Dont you think?

so your answer to hanas stopping the missiles is to let them have any hardware they desire
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I didn't offer any answers; only my own perspective.

Until the issues of Cause and Effect are addressed, there will be no improvement in the situation. The tragedy is that there seems limited, if any, desire to address these fundamentals on either side of the equation.
 
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