New Approach

EC1 said:
which was exactly what happened to Motivator

it's quite clear that 10f is now the be all and end all...12f is turning into the new "leger" distance as far as the game goes

it's one of teh reasons why the KG is no longer of much interest

10f is THE distance required on the CV above all others

epsom derby will be 10f in a few years time
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Despite the fact the top two stallions in Europe were both 1m4f specialists.

I think it is a shame if we just label horses at one distance, New Approach has proved that in the past that he was placed in two Guineas so has every right to go for 10 furlongs.

Like I said, the form of New Approach's Derby form will be tested soon enough. The Irish Derby raised doubts in my mind and today's run has put further seeds of doubt in my mind.
 
EC1 said:
it's quite clear that 10f is now the be all and end all...12f is turning into the new "leger" distance as far as the game goes

it's one of teh reasons why the KG is no longer of much interest

10f is THE distance required on the CV above all others

epsom derby will be 10f in a few years time
Click to expand...

The reason the King George is not as interesting is that it is felt that running in it harms a horse`s Arc prospects. And as long as the Arc is Europe`s most important race 12f will remain the "sexiest" trip.
 
Galileo said:
Despite the fact the top two stallions in Europe were both 1m4f specialists.

.
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the key word there is "were"

Im talking about the future



I can't see how running in the KG has any bearing on a horse winning the Arc Euronymous

one is in July and the other is in October?

it's this ...must win at 10f mentality ...that is now ruling where horses run

if a horse runs in the KG...it buggers up it's chances in teh 10f contests in August/September is more like it

the arc will eventually be a 10f race as well I reckon

we are steadily turning into the USA...in lots of ways
 
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The key word is not "were"...they are the current top stallions! That is what matters!

The Arc is a monster, the be all and end all of the end of the season....there is no way it is going to be a 10 furlong race.
 
There is absolutely no chance whatever of the Derby or the Arc becoming 10f races.

Why would anyone in this part of the world, want to make horse racing more "American"?

The game there is on its knees after a long period of ignominious, rudderless decline which looks set to continue.

With few exceptions, the "racinos" are kept alive solely by slots, and it won't be long before tracks realise that doing away with live racing will deliver more profits to them, and more revenue for good causes in the states in which they operate.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
I would be gobsmacked if Bolger didn't run him at Leopardstown unless there's something amiss with the horse (including needing more time to recover from today).
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The horse certainly didn't run to his best today. Having seen him in the pre-parade ring and in the PR I didn't think he would - his injury to the muscles in his quarters may be healed, but imo they looked very weak and are still not as firmed up as you would wish for races of this sort. Of course never having seen him before, I had nothing to compare him to - except all the other horses there, and that I've seen in the past!

In addition he became a little anxious when his pony which came into the PR with him was turned away, and refused to walk much on the walkway, preferring the grass and in general being a bit contrary. I wasn't surprised to hear he pulled hard early. He is a hard horse to get right, mentally as much as physically

Bolgert as good as said after the race that he might have needed the run as his quarter muscles needed to fully tauten up again - not what he said before the race LOL
 
If he fights for his head so much so early, why not give it to him? What is there to lose? Maybe the horse needs to lead?

Anyway, fighting him in the first furlong -- and it was quite a struggle, wasn't it? -- how many horses go on to win their race when subject to such corrective action by the jockey?

I haven't seen enough races to know.
What's so desperately important about hauling him back so early?
Why not let him go for 1/2 a mile & see how he is after that?
 
That seems a reasonable question to ask, Michael.

I don't know the answer.

I did ask the question earlier in the thread if pony-ing the horse to the start was working.........no answers, as yet.
 
It's a subject on which I've had some interesting exchanges with trainers... :rolleyes:
They all seem to have this fixation that a horse must be taught to 'settle' and to that end you see a jockey 'settling' the horse out the back, and often failing miserably as the horse wants to be up with the pace, resulting in a strength-sapping battle of wills. The only way to find out if a horse is a genuine front-runner is to try it - and it's often a jockey disobeying orders who does the finding out!

There is so much at stake in these big races I think most trainers find it harder to think outside their habitual box. In NA's case I'm not aware that he's one of those who stops in front - so they really ought to try it, or at least let him get up with the pacemaker. But since in NA's races that's usually a Ballydoyle horse, it's a dangerous ploy
 
Similarly with ponying him to the start, the only way to really see if it makes a difference is to try him without and see how he gets on. Although he could still run, fight for his head anyway and maybe blow his chances that way so might be hard to call.
 
New Approach

If I were sheikh Mohamed I would not run him this season and would send him to Fabre to be campaigned as a 4yo.
 
mrussell said:
Anyway, fighting him in the first furlong -- and it was quite a struggle, wasn't it? -- how many horses go on to win their race when subject to such corrective action by the jockey?
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A quick & dirty search of data exported from RI & covering March 2004 to July 2007, Turf races (flat) in GB:
12,927 winners = ~ number of races,
Of which:
73 winners pulled hard
1674 winners made all or soon led.

Not a perfect query but perhaps indicative.
It doesn't show how many 'would have' pulled hard but were let go by the jockey -- maybe they're in the 'made all' group, maybe not!

On balance, then, Mr Manning might have done better to let NA have his head?

Regards
 
imagine said:
Similarly with ponying him to the start, the only way to really see if it makes a difference is to try him without and see how he gets on. Although he could still run, fight for his head anyway and maybe blow his chances that way so might be hard to call.
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I was at the course yesterday, and missed the preceding race while watching NA and DOM and the others in the pre-parade ring etc [with Crazyhorse!].

New Appraoich was very relaxed in the PPR, wealking round head dropped preceded by his 'pony' - he was more relaxed than DOM. His pony accompanied him into the PR and then was peeled off - NA immediately became anxious, kept trying to get on the grass, didn't want to walk in file, jinked a few times etc.

I wouldn't risk not ponying him to the start. I'm sure his pulling is a response to losing the pony, who evidently goes with him everywhere, as well as an eagerness to have his head. He's clearly a very tricky customer, and Manning knows him very well. Hard to second guess those who do
 
It's very easy to say that if a horse is pulling, why not let it go to the front - but it's not that easy.

For starters they can/will often expend just as much energy when given their head - assuming of course that once given their head the jockey is still in control and holding it. Unless of course you all mean that he should be allowed to go as fast as he wants to go - since he's not going to fall in a hole having been allowed to gallop flat out early doors, is he?
 
Despite what O'Brien said, I did not think DOM travelled as well as before. I wonder if the trip back and forth, back and forth just took the edge off him.
 
I think the problem is that the trainer and jockey are not able to settle him, a change of trainer and jockey could be the key, what about Fabre and Dettori.
 
Ok, so it was a bit facetious - but in all seriousness if a free horse is allowed to pull his way to the front, he tends to do far too much and have nothing left for the final stages.

There is a very fine line between trying to settle a horse who is pulling hard and letting him pull himself to the front whilst maintaining control - so fine a line that it is very easy to cross and you'll find that in letting him have his head to get to the front you can easily lose the tiny modicum of control that you already hold in keeping him where you want him, fighting you or not. Once those reins are let out a notch and you let them have their own way, no matter how small, they tend to take a foot when offering half an inch and it can be so easy to suddenly realise that actually, the horse has stolen a tiny march on you in seeing that daylight and actually, he is winning that battle. It can so easily go downhill from there! It is often the best course to sit and suffer - ie sit in behind and let them fight you!
 
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well it seems to me that the main strength JS has is that he is very good at settling horses...whereas Manning clearly wasn't

maybe NA is unsettelable..so I may be being harsh on Manning

I'd like to see JS ride NA..certain jockeys for certain horses etc
 
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