Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Good times. Especially now he's with a master trainer.
Novice Chasers 2011-12
- Thread starter granger
- Start date
Who is this master trainer?
Bar the Bull
At the Start
One of the Williams.
Nick, Evan, Ian, Dai or Robbie. They're all the same to me.
Nick, Evan, Ian, Dai or Robbie. They're all the same to me.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
You're both dead to me.
rorydelargy
At the Start
Fishing?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
No doubt about it. I fully expect Harry to give Long Run all he can handle at Haydock next month.
Eh, have a look at how he has done with him and Cheltenham the past 3 seasons...
What do you mean by fishing?
Diamond Harry:
Novice hurdling season - trained him as if he were a greyhound come the New Year (look at old threads on here, am sure it was mentioned) and he looked gone as a result come March.
Following season - neither here nor there. Waited until much too late to send him novice chasing, meaning the horse had no suitable races in which to learn how to jump properly, meaning novice chase season very much wasted.
Last season - Ran him once. Then decided not to run him again for around 8 months, meaning an injury in March meant he ended the season having only run once. ONCE.
Master Trainer.
Novice hurdling season - trained him as if he were a greyhound come the New Year (look at old threads on here, am sure it was mentioned) and he looked gone as a result come March.
Following season - neither here nor there. Waited until much too late to send him novice chasing, meaning the horse had no suitable races in which to learn how to jump properly, meaning novice chase season very much wasted.
Last season - Ran him once. Then decided not to run him again for around 8 months, meaning an injury in March meant he ended the season having only run once. ONCE.
Master Trainer.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Or an alternative view is that he won a Hennessy in fairly effortless fashion with a horse who is clearly hard to train.
Juding Nick Williams as a trainer on Diamond Harry alone - and then compounding the error by focusing on DH's Cheltenham efforts (the horse is very probably unsuited to Cheltenham and swayed like an MFI wardrobe there as early as his novice hurdling season) - is as daft as suggesting Straw Bear was a better hurdler than Solwhit.
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rorydelargy
At the Start
It's nice to see those who claimed Williams ruined Diamond Harry as a novice are using his Hennessy victory as proof of the aforementioned argument, when the horse Williams bought himself for £11k won his owners 9 times that in prize money. That Paul Duffy should give Hamm a call, rather than pissing his money away on lost causes like DH (earnings £225k) and Reve de Sivola (bought by Williams for 6k - current earnings 162k).
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Couldn't have picked a better day to point this out really - Cornas has just chased home the odds-on favourite Formosa Joanna Has in a Listed Chase at Enghien, he's picked up just under £21,000 for finishing second.
Strange response. Buying 2 horses who make more than they cost does not make him a master trainer. That is my point.
You could state the actual profit from these horses, as you figures you posted dont take into account training fees, and what they actually got in earnings.
Or an alternative view is that he won a Hennessy in fairly effortless fashion with a horse who is clearly hard to train.
Juding Nick Williams as a trainer on Diamond Harry alone - and then compounding the error by focusing on DH's Cheltenham efforts (the horse is very probably unsuited to Cheltenham and swayed like an MFI wardrobe there as early as his novice hurdling season) - is as daft as suggesting Straw Bear was a better hurdler than Solwhit.
I used DH as an example - where are the examples of what a master trainer he is!
rorydelargy
At the Start
Hamm,
you seem confused. I haven't called Nick Williams a master trainer. Those are someone else's words. I've merely pointed out how well he's done with a couple of horses. Those horses aren't unique - Dom D'orgeval and Philson Run both cost peanuts and went on to win 212k and 176k in prize money respectively. The former was sold to David Pipe for over 250k but the new owners eventually took him back to Williams to get him to win again. King's Brook cost nothing, but won over 100k before being sold for 30k, and failed to win after leaving the yard. Maljimar cost 9k and has made 100k profit in prize money terms. Beshabar was another to achieve notable success before being sold at a huge profit, as of course was Pistolet Noir.
Nick Williams isn't in the same league as Henderson and Nicholls when it comes to major prizes, but then he also doesn't have a conveyor belt of talent stocked by the country's top/most expensive agents. He's bought the vast majority of his runners himself, mostly for very small money, and the relative
level of success he's achieved with such animals is genuinely exceptional. Your attempts to paint him as inept merely serve to make you look a fool. And a big fat one, at that.
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
He's sort of like the Racing equivalent of David Moyes. Not many pots to shout about but you know he's a better manager than Mancini or Redknapp.
What an embarasing post by Rory. I merely said he was not a master trainer, and used DH as an example to show why. I never said he hasn't done good things, of course has. Your posts then go onto indicate Williams made profit figures you stated for owners - you take no account of the sctual prize money the owners ended up getting, nor trainers fees - i hope your maths aren't always this bad.
You clearly have a vested interest, and have come across as not reading my posts, and hence i would suggest it is you who is the fatter fool.
You clearly have a vested interest, and have come across as not reading my posts, and hence i would suggest it is you who is the fatter fool.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Try reading your own posts again, Hamm.
You stated Nick Williams had "made a mess" of Diamond Harry, yet the horse in question is 10 wins from 13 starts, including winning the aforementioned Hennessy. Rather than back-up your argument, DH's race-record exposes it as ill-thought in the first place - regardless of williams success or otherwise with other animals he has handled.
You stated Nick Williams had "made a mess" of Diamond Harry, yet the horse in question is 10 wins from 13 starts, including winning the aforementioned Hennessy. Rather than back-up your argument, DH's race-record exposes it as ill-thought in the first place - regardless of williams success or otherwise with other animals he has handled.
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rorydelargy
At the Start
I have no involvement with Nick Williams at all - and I can hardly be accused of blowing smoke up his fundament. If you want to question his "master trainer" status, you can do so without pouring scorn. The bottom line is that Williams is a top-class medium-sized trainer. Whether he could survive the rigours of Paul Nicholls' set up is open to some debate, but it's possible to make that point without making snide points about how he's messed up with Diamond Harry. No trainer in the country would have found Diamond Harry and made the success of him that Nick Williams has, and his career record is truly remarkable if you care to look at it in any real detail. For a horse who isn't put together in a particularly pretty manner, and is clearly not the easiset to train, that's an achievement which deserves at least grudging respect.
Your original post came across as disrespectful and ill-advised. I apologise if it was meat to read differently. If it was meant to read differently, however, I'd make more of an effort in future to convey that meaning more succinctly.
For a person who seems to go looking for controversy, you get embarrassed rather easily.
Diamond Harry was an immature horse and still is not straightforward. After his debut win Williams had the patience to wait a whole year with him and came back to win the same valuable bumper he had won a year previously. Away from Cheltenham the horse has had a near perfect record. And your point about the difference between gross and net winnings is irrelevant, what difference does it make?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
For a horse that was gone I'd point out that he was placed in a very hot Baring Bingham and would have won an ordinary renewal.
Won a very valuable event at Haydock (when you're not patronised by multi-millionaires these races are well worth aiming horses at). I do accept that Nick shouldn't have run him at Cheltenham with so little jumping experience though.
It might have been once but it was the biggest chase of the season outside of the Gold Cup and the King George. Ultimately the horse got injured - shit happens.
No need to make it personal, as you tend to do - i enjoy having strong debates but why you feel the need to comment on me, god only knows.