Novice & Juvenile Hurdlers 2019/20

Envoi did what he needed to, plenty of petrol left in the tank.
Think reading between the lines from Elliott's comments post race, it seems he'll go Ballymore.
 
Where do we think Thyme Hill goes?

I’ve invested in both the Ballymore and Albert Bartlett with a view of cashing out for profit later on. This has now come to fruition, just don’t know which one to cash.
 
Last edited:
Where do we think Thyme Hill goes?

I’ve invested in both the Ballymore and Albert Bartlett with a view of cashing out for profit later on. This has now come to fruition, just don’t know which one to cash.
I would have said Ballymore up until recently, but you'd have to think there'll be an "avoid Envoi Allen" clause in most other trainers thoughts now. (Trainers with high profile potential festival winning novice hurdlers anyway).
 
Where do we think Thyme Hill goes?

I’ve invested in both the Ballymore and Albert Bartlett with a view of cashing out for profit later on. This has now come to fruition, just don’t know which one to cash.

I'd quite confidently predict Albert Bartlett unless v soft.
 
I'm not getting carried away with Envoi as hopefully his best is still to come

It is very unusual to see what you know will be a staying chaser answer so many questions over hurdles and over minimum trips
 
How could one not get carried away by Envoi Allen? He's done everything asked of him and his form his beyond reproach. With the exception of his seriously impressive stablemate Easywork, every strand of decent Irish novice form leads to Envoi and even the collateral handicap form is putting him at a very healthy standard for a novice.

Not sure that we know he will be a staying chaser. His sire line is definitely stout but not overtly ploddy and he does share a great granddam with Espoir d'Allen. There's no reason why he can't produce top class form over two and three in time...
 
Very true and it is that which makes him particularly exciting for me as I am generally quite standoffish when it comes to horsey hype.

His bubble may very well burst but there have also been plenty of bubbles have remained intact and grown. Indeed, many of the greats had serious reputations as novices and other than him possibly being precocious (for a jumper), I see no reason why he couldn't become top class in the championship divisions.
 
How could one not get carried away by Envoi Allen? He's done everything asked of him and his form his beyond reproach. With the exception of his seriously impressive stablemate Easywork, every strand of decent Irish novice form leads to Envoi and even the collateral handicap form is putting him at a very healthy standard for a novice.

Not sure that we know he will be a staying chaser. His sire line is definitely stout but not overtly ploddy and he does share a great granddam with Espoir d'Allen. There's no reason why he can't produce top class form over two and three in time...
Kevin Blake hasn't succumbed to the hype.
https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/the-flip-side
 
Kevin Blake hasn't succumbed to the hype.
https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/the-flip-side

He only really makes two and a half arguments, none of which I find particularly compelling;-

1) He hasn't faced traffic problems.
Nor would most other horses who typically race prominently. Furthermore, traffic problems aren't usually an issue in championship class jumps races due to the smaller field sizes and the tendency for dead wood to either drop away early or be ridden patiently.

1.5) He has shown hints of temperament
As have the majority of novice hurdlers and bumper horses. He has also shown more than a hint of battling ability.

2) has yet to produce a performance that screams superstar
I don't think anybody is calling him a superstar just yet. But his profile is full value for a 150+ mark which befits one with his exciting potential. Generally speaking with hype horses, they've mostly beaten trees but it is very difficult to poke holes in the quality of his form. Looking at his efforts in pattern races;-

Navan Bumper
2nd (4.75 comfortable lengths) - Midnight Run - Convincing winner of a bumper containing Column of Fire (since 3rd to Elixir d'Ainay and 2nd to Longhouse Poet) and Easywork (won all three subsequent starts and prominent in any novice market for the festival)
3rd (another 5 lengths) - Run Wild Fred - Won three subsequent races including one from Fiddlerontheroof

Leopardstown Bumper
2nd - Meticulous - 8th in bumper sole subsequent start
3rd - Embittered - Won 25 runner Naas maiden hurdle, three defeats all in Grade One company
4th - Beacon Edge - 3rd in Punchestown G1 Bumper, won 19 runner Punchestown maiden
5th - Mt Leinster - 2nd then 7th in festival bumpers at Fairyhouse and Punchestown, 1½l 2nd to Easywork at Gowran before winning 18 runner maiden on boxing day.
6th - Run Wild Fred - see above

Cheltenham Bumper
2nd - Blue Sari - won 22 runner Punchestown maiden, too bad to be true in G1
3rd - Thyne Hill - won Persian War from Fiddlerontheroof, won Hyde Novices' from Champagne Well and Happygolucky (both placed in G2s), won G1 Challow.
4th - Abacadabras - 2nd Punchestown Bumper, won For Auction from Latest Exhibition by three easy lengths, 2nd to Envoi Allen, won Future Champions by eight lengths
5th - The Glancing Queen - won Aintree Bumper sole subsequent start from Minella Melody (listed winner at Punchestown) and Daylight Katie (G3 winner from Jeremys Flame)

Royal Bond
2nd - Abacadabras - see above
3rd - Carver Star - came into race on back of four wins on the bounce including a listed race and a handicap off 133 by five comfortable lengths
4th - Turnpike Trip - three wins and a second over hurdles beforehand, subsequently fourth in competitive Ascot handicap off 146
5th - Embittered - see above

Naas Novice
2nd - Elixir d'Ainay - sole Mullins representative, won 16 runner Naas maiden from Longhouse Poet and Column Of Fire
3rd - Longhouse Poet - won 25 runner Navan maiden

Save for winning every single race on the bridle by a distance, what else could Envoi Allen have done at this stage? Again, I will not suggest that he will be the next superstar but it is very difficult to crab what he has achieved thus far without resorting to tenuousness. Every Grade One and Grade Two novice hurdle in Britain and Ireland has either been taken by Envoi Allen, a horse beaten by Envoi Allen, or through Envoi Allen on collateral form. There have been hype horses in the past, including many whose reputation is based on homework and a solitary maiden win. But I would be interested to see how many of them had form this solid at this stage before having their bubbles emphatically burst.
 
He only really makes two and a half arguments, none of which I find particularly compelling;-

1) He hasn't faced traffic problems.
Nor would most other horses who typically race prominently. Furthermore, traffic problems aren't usually an issue in championship class jumps races due to the smaller field sizes and the tendency for dead wood to either drop away early or be ridden patiently.

1.5) He has shown hints of temperament
As have the majority of novice hurdlers and bumper horses. He has also shown more than a hint of battling ability.

2) has yet to produce a performance that screams superstar
I don't think anybody is calling him a superstar just yet. But his profile is full value for a 150+ mark which befits one with his exciting potential. Generally speaking with hype horses, they've mostly beaten trees but it is very difficult to poke holes in the quality of his form. Looking at his efforts in pattern races;-

Navan Bumper
2nd (4.75 comfortable lengths) - Midnight Run - Convincing winner of a bumper containing Column of Fire (since 3rd to Elixir d'Ainay and 2nd to Longhouse Poet) and Easywork (won all three subsequent starts and prominent in any novice market for the festival)
3rd (another 5 lengths) - Run Wild Fred - Won three subsequent races including one from Fiddlerontheroof

Leopardstown Bumper
2nd - Meticulous - 8th in bumper sole subsequent start
3rd - Embittered - Won 25 runner Naas maiden hurdle, three defeats all in Grade One company
4th - Beacon Edge - 3rd in Punchestown G1 Bumper, won 19 runner Punchestown maiden
5th - Mt Leinster - 2nd then 7th in festival bumpers at Fairyhouse and Punchestown, 1½l 2nd to Easywork at Gowran before winning 18 runner maiden on boxing day.
6th - Run Wild Fred - see above

Cheltenham Bumper
2nd - Blue Sari - won 22 runner Punchestown maiden, too bad to be true in G1
3rd - Thyne Hill - won Persian War from Fiddlerontheroof, won Hyde Novices' from Champagne Well and Happygolucky (both placed in G2s), won G1 Challow.
4th - Abacadabras - 2nd Punchestown Bumper, won For Auction from Latest Exhibition by three easy lengths, 2nd to Envoi Allen, won Future Champions by eight lengths
5th - The Glancing Queen - won Aintree Bumper sole subsequent start from Minella Melody (listed winner at Punchestown) and Daylight Katie (G3 winner from Jeremys Flame)

Royal Bond
2nd - Abacadabras - see above
3rd - Carver Star - came into race on back of four wins on the bounce including a listed race and a handicap off 133 by five comfortable lengths
4th - Turnpike Trip - three wins and a second over hurdles beforehand, subsequently fourth in competitive Ascot handicap off 146
5th - Embittered - see above

Naas Novice
2nd - Elixir d'Ainay - sole Mullins representative, won 16 runner Naas maiden from Longhouse Poet and Column Of Fire
3rd - Longhouse Poet - won 25 runner Navan maiden

Save for winning every single race on the bridle by a distance, what else could Envoi Allen have done at this stage? Again, I will not suggest that he will be the next superstar but it is very difficult to crab what he has achieved thus far without resorting to tenuousness. Every Grade One and Grade Two novice hurdle in Britain and Ireland has either been taken by Envoi Allen, a horse beaten by Envoi Allen, or through Envoi Allen on collateral form. There have been hype horses in the past, including many whose reputation is based on homework and a solitary maiden win. But I would be interested to see how many of them had form this solid at this stage before having their bubbles emphatically burst.

Its a far cry from Sweet Wake, and I don't think he is a ridiculous price for Cheltenham.

However, there are some that would lead you to believe that the Champion is his for the taking. Think the point is that he was 1/4 to win at Naas. He was expected to win comfortably and if anything didnt quite win like a 1/4 shot, yet in its aftermath it was talked about by some as if he was unbeatable.
 
Its a far cry from Sweet Wake, and I don't think he is a ridiculous price for Cheltenham.

However, there are some that would lead you to believe that the Champion is his for the taking. Think the point is that he was 1/4 to win at Naas. He was expected to win comfortably and if anything didnt quite win like a 1/4 shot, yet in its aftermath it was talked about by some as if he was unbeatable.

Hope he does run in the Champion, as does Honeysuckle, makes everything else a better price. Neither win it.
 
Its a far cry from Sweet Wake, and I don't think he is a ridiculous price for Cheltenham.

However, there are some that would lead you to believe that the Champion is his for the taking. Think the point is that he was 1/4 to win at Naas. He was expected to win comfortably and if anything didnt quite win like a 1/4 shot, yet in its aftermath it was talked about by some as if he was unbeatable.

If you put enough monkeys in front of enough keyboards connected to the internet then you will find enough of them saying pretty much anything.

Personally, I thought it was a perfectly acceptable manner of winning for a green 1/4 shot in a Grade One novice hurdle. I would not be inclined to consider the Champion Hurdle but novices, albeit ones with oodles of flat experience, can win the race (Alderbrook, Make A Stand, Royal Gait) and in a renewal where the three market leaders are rated 159, 160 and 153, a case for a big run could feasibly be made.
 
If you put enough monkeys in front of enough keyboards connected to the internet then you will find enough of them saying pretty much anything.

Personally, I thought it was a perfectly acceptable manner of winning for a green 1/4 shot in a Grade One novice hurdle. I would not be inclined to consider the Champion Hurdle but novices, albeit ones with oodles of flat experience, can win the race (Alderbrook, Make A Stand, Royal Gait) and in a renewal where the three market leaders are rated 159, 160 and 153, a case for a big run could feasibly be made.
I don't believe any of the 3 was ever pencilled in for a NH career over further than 2m, and I can't seriously believe that a horse of his nature would be up to winning any 2m NH race run at a Championship pace.
 
Last edited:
Showed some good battling qualities there Andy Dufresne, against the horse that finished second who also looks decent. Pulled well clear of the rest.
Well run Supreme will see him in the mix.
 
As well as Danny's mention above, I've noticed a few people putting up Captain Guinness 20/1 for the Supreme on the Ante Post thread too.
I definitely think it's interesting and worth some conversation/debate.

I can understand punter's view that it pulled so hard yesterday and still nearly got the job done, and that a truly run supreme would be ideal.
But it's a big jump. Pulling well clear of the 3rd yesterday is only relative to that horse - who's had 5 runs and is rated 136 - which I think is fair and accurate right now.

Then there's the rating of yesterday's performance relative to Andy Dufresne.
My view of Andy now is that he's just not as good as we thought and he's better over further. I think he effectively outstayed CG yesterday.

All in all I wouldn't be jumping to back Captain Guinness at 20/1 for the Supreme right now, but would love to hear others opinions on it.
 
I was quite impressed by the win of Mossy Fen at Warwick on Saturday. A typical Twiston-Davies chaser in the making, he looked a little outpaced after the second last but stayed on with great determination to get up on the post.
 
I was quite impressed by the win of Mossy Fen at Warwick on Saturday. A typical Twiston-Davies chaser in the making, he looked a little outpaced after the second last but stayed on with great determination to get up on the post.

I liked the second in that race - coming late off a stronger pace could see him in good light.
 
As well as Danny's mention above, I've noticed a few people putting up Captain Guinness 20/1 for the Supreme on the Ante Post thread too.
I definitely think it's interesting and worth some conversation/debate.

I can understand punter's view that it pulled so hard yesterday and still nearly got the job done, and that a truly run supreme would be ideal.
But it's a big jump. Pulling well clear of the 3rd yesterday is only relative to that horse - who's had 5 runs and is rated 136 - which I think is fair and accurate right now.

Then there's the rating of yesterday's performance relative to Andy Dufresne.
My view of Andy now is that he's just not as good as we thought and he's better over further. I think he effectively outstayed CG yesterday.

All in all I wouldn't be jumping to back Captain Guinness at 20/1 for the Supreme right now, but would love to hear others opinions on it.

I'm surprised how many people have said Captain Guinness is the one to take from the race. If they both go Supreme then Cheltenham is a far stiffer 2 miles than Punchestown, which correct me if I'm wrong, is a fairly flat track.
Andy Dufresne absolutely winged the last, stayed on really well, showed an attitude to get his head down & as far more knowledgeable people than me have said in the past, you need to be able to stay well to win a Supreme.
Struggling to see why CG would finish in front of him.
Abacadabras looks good & rightly heads the market but would be prepared to take him on with AD.
 
I've backed AD nrnb for the Supreme as cover for my Abas ap bet. The De Bromhead horse would be more of interest for the Arkle next year
 
Back
Top