Paris Shootings

who said i was talking to you?

you really are a time waster arent you? Pretty clear derogatory remarks made about those of jewish origin but you go on about "lsiamophobia"

do we really have to explain to this slow witted student that islam is a choice and jewish origin isnt ? got it?
 
clivex said:
who said i was talking to you?
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You quoted me ffs :D


clivex said:
you really are a time waster arent you? Pretty clear derogatory remarks made about those of jewish origin but you go on about "lsiamophobia"
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Your post count would suggest you waste a lot more time than I do... You're guilty of the exact same crime only in the opposite direction. Although I have the courtesy not to put quotation marks over your particular brand of discrimination because I oppose both forms of blanket denigration.

clivex said:
do we really have to explain to this slow witted student that islam is a choice and jewish origin isnt ? got it?
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There's a difference between religion and DNA? Well I never... Thanks for explaining that, I'd never have known otherwise.

Now would you like to accept that for many Muslims, Islam is little more than a cultural identity and that these Muslims have no business being thrown in with the fundamentalists?
 
I was referring to all and sundry as you level the charge against those who dare criticize Israeli policy without any evidence of anti-semitism. The notion that opposing Israeli policy automatically makes one a bigot is abhorrently offensive to the tenets of free speech.

Well we have the evidence today dont we?
 
There's a difference between religion and DNA? Well I never... Thanks for explaining that, I'd never have known otherwise.

Suggest you read through the thread ?

Many will accept that there are strands of islam that are relatively tolerant such as the one i referred to, but as we know full well its not just fundamentalists who hold some pretty unpleasant views on the rest of society. A society they chose to live in

28% of uk muslims dream of the uk becoming a sharia islamic state. Not a majority but thats how many?
 
Grasshopper said:
I said "possibly even marginally legitimising it", Hamm.......and left it as an open question.

Regardless, there is no parallel between Gaza and Paris.

The incursion into Gaza was - right or wrong - in response to rocket-attacks on Israel by Hamas. We've discussed that topic to death on here before, my position is known, and I'm not going to repeat it here.

The motivation behind the Paris attacks is a combination of blind-hatred of the West and a bizarre form of religious nihilism. And as Clivex has subsequently pointed-out, there are countries who had no part in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, who now find themselves in the Jihadists cross-hairs, which further dilutes the argument that the Iraq War is at the root of the problem.

On a wider point, if something so trivial as a picture can upset the majority of the world's 1 Billion Muslims, then the game is a bogey. It exposes a massive and fundamental (excuse the pun) difference in the value systems of Muslims and - well - 'everyone else'.......or to put it another way, between those who want to live under the Laws of God, and those who want to live under the Laws of Man.

There is self-evidently no room for manoeuvre on the part of Muslims, and there is zero appetite to go back to the Middle Ages on the part of everyone else. It's for these reasons that I believe we are ultimately heading for a global conflict between Islam and 'everyone else'. The Jihadis will very-likely get their wish, because there is only so much that 'everyone else' will put up with, before they start seeing every Muslim as a potential threat......something we can see in embryonic form in parts of France already.
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I agree with most of what you say but there IS imho a parallel, in that many innocent people were unnecessarily murdered. If there is 1 hamas operative (who I condemn before Clive jumps on this) hiding amongst a school of children, and a UN one at that, and that school is bombed and children are killed, then that in my language is murder. Tough luck for Israel, they will have to find another way to get the Hamas operative; but they didn't.

To clarify a few points about my thoughts on things as many things seem to be taken the wrong way..

I have sympathy for those reasonable people who see Islam as a big issue in Europe; it is, and ignoring it and saying we're all the same is madness. I don't go as far as Clive, but I don't see how Islam in its current form for the majority of its followers in Europe can co-exist peacefully with most Europeans and how they live their lives. Leaving the word to the far-right to own this debate for fear of offending minorities is the mistake the main political parties have made. Hollande would have been better off spending last Sunday accepting this, and starting a process to find a solution.

I'm happy to clarify my thoughts on Jewish people for fear of Clive's numbskulled response mentioning Hitler going unanswered. I don't like the Jewish lobbying in Europe and America, I detest the influence it brings to bear in the west, I detest how the country treats Palestinians, I find their religion hilarious and that it borders on lunacy as much as Islam does. It's worse as most European and American jews should have had exposure in their education to the Enlightenment etc, whereas many Muslims have not, and their extreme beliefs are often due to a lack of education (not excusing them, just this is a huge contributing reason). If a person is of jewish origin but isn't of the crazy idea that Israel is their holy land and that they are the chosen people, I don't look at them any different from anyone else. Yes, Hamas are a horrible entity, but they have been created entirely due to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel and the West.
 
and the Jewish belief that they are a race above and better than all others. They are bordering on mad.



You made a statement about ALL jews hamm. Secular and observant. It could not be taken any other way and certainly was not meant to be.

The above refers clearly to "their race" and not their belief.

This is undoubtably anti semitic and were also reminiscent of those paraded by various islamic scum and the nazis as well as many on the far left
 
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clivex said:
There's a difference between religion and DNA? Well I never... Thanks for explaining that, I'd never have known otherwise.

Suggest you read through the thread ?
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Was there anywhere in this thread where I assumed that secular people and religious people are one and the same?

clivex said:
28% of uk muslims dream of the uk becoming a sharia islamic state. Not a majority but thats how many?
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For what it's worth, whilst there are different jurisprudences within Sharia, I consider a substantial amount of that 28% as either poorly educated and naive, or fundamentalist.

Thankfully, it is a minority and it's a fair assumption that in a few generations' time, that percentage will be negligible.
 
Bachelors Hall said:
Now would you like to accept that for many Muslims, Islam is little more than a cultural identity
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Now I realise this question is not asked of me, but, I'll give my opinion anyway. :D
Many, many polls taken would indicate that the above is untrue. Polls of ordinary Muslims show an alarming majority of them in favour of punishment for Gays, in favour of execution of apostates, in favour of elimination of the state of Israel.
It is clear that Islam is more than a cultural identity thing for most Muslims; it is a religious matter -- they follow the teachings of the book in their attitudes and everyday living.
 
clivex said:
and the Jewish belief that they are a race above and better than all others. They are bordering on mad.



You made a statement about ALL jews hamm. Secular and observant. It could not be taken any other way and certainly was not meant to be.

The above refers clearly to "their race" and not their belief.

This is undoubtably anti semitic and were also reminiscent of those paraded by various islamic scum and the nazis as well as many on the far left
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Clive, stop looking for an argument. My point was about the religion and well you know it.
 
Hamm said:
I'm happy to clarify my thoughts on Jewish people for fear of Clive's numbskulled response mentioning Hitler going unanswered. I don't like the Jewish lobbying in Europe and America, I detest the influence it brings to bear in the west, I detest how the country treats Palestinians, I find their religion hilarious and that it borders on lunacy as much as Islam does. It's worse as most European and American jews should have had exposure in their education to the Enlightenment etc, whereas many Muslims have not, and their extreme beliefs are often due to a lack of education (not excusing them, just this is a huge contributing reason). If a person is of jewish origin but isn't of the crazy idea that Israel is their holy land and that they are the chosen people, I don't look at them any different from anyone else. Yes, Hamas are a horrible entity, but they have been created entirely due to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel and the West.
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This is an anti-Semitic rant, and nothing else.
Your obvious hatred towards a country and a race/creed who has visited no harm upon you is unexplainable; it is verging on the psychopathic.
 
Icebreaker, for you to call someone psychopathic is almost amusing. Your views on the killing of school children are chilling, and you should hop down off your pedestal.

Your views on Islam are far stronger than my views on Judaism.
 
clivex, you really ought to drop the claims of antisemitism. I've had it out with you before about your poisonous accusations.

Bachelors is right, you are refusing to answer his question, preferring to resort to bluster and abuse.
 
icebreaker said:
This is an anti-Semitic rant, and nothing else.
Your obvious hatred towards a country and a race/creed who has visited no harm upon you is unexplainable; it is verging on the psychopathic.
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What harm have muslims 'visited' upon you to gives you the right to post here with so much chilling bluster?
 
icebreaker said:
Now I realise this question is not asked of me, but, I'll give my opinion anyway. :D
Many, many polls taken would indicate that the above is untrue. Polls of ordinary Muslims show an alarming majority of them in favour of punishment for Gays, in favour of execution of apostates, in favour of elimination of the state of Israel.
It is clear that Islam is more than a cultural identity thing for most Muslims; it is a religious matter -- they follow the teachings of the book in their attitudes and everyday living.
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Tis a free forum after all :D

My original point is that not all Muslims or people who identify as Muslims are the same.

I will not defend those who are in favour of punishment for homosexuality based on principles religious or otherwise. Nevertheless, it's worth remembering that even in the UK, we're barely a generation from the suicide of Alan Turing, that Section 28 was repealed only in 2003 and that homophobic attacks are still very much prevalent in society and are committed predominantly by non-Muslims. Promoting execution of apostates is something completely abhorrent but I would like to see where it is an "alarming majority". It can be argued that the existence of Israel is more a political issue than a strictly religious one in much the same way as the existence of Kosovo.

After a brief flicking through polls, I did notice that the percentages on the wrong side of the polls (if you will) have been on the decline over time. Throughout time, irrational dogma has existed in every religion but has become less pronounced in line with contemporary societal values.
 
Hamm said:
What harm have muslims 'visited' upon you to gives you the right to post here with so much chilling bluster?
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Never claimed that they did !
I haven't been promoting anti-Islam hatred as you have been regularly peddling anti-Jewish agitprop.
I have been amongst the first on here to call the Charlie Hebdo cartoonery insulting Muslims to be obnoxious and wrong. Not quite the mindset of an Islamophobe, is it?
So, yeah, I think I have equal right as you to post on here.
 
Bachelors Hall said:
After a brief flicking through polls, I did notice that the percentages on the wrong side of the polls (if you will) have been on the decline over time. Throughout time, irrational dogma has existed in every religion but has become less pronounced in line with contemporary societal values.
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That's a fair comment.
I do sincerely hope that positive change-of-attitudes does continue.
 
Grey said:
clivex, you really ought to drop the claims of antisemitism. I've had it out with you before about your poisonous accusations.

Bachelors is right, you are refusing to answer his question, preferring to resort to bluster and abuse.
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cant you read???

and the Jewish belief that they are a race above and better than all others. They are bordering on mad.

or should i say its very interesting that you do not think that this an anti semitic statement. I mean, how much fcking clearer could it be. "race" "mad"

very interesting indeed
 
Hamm said:
Clive, stop looking for an argument. My point was about the religion and well you know it.
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When you use the word "race" you are not referring to religion. is that difficult to understand??

if you want to backtrack you can but that is exactly what it says on the tin
 
Bachelors Hall said:
Tis a free forum after all :D

My original point is that not all Muslims or people who identify as Muslims are the same.

I will not defend those who are in favour of punishment for homosexuality based on principles religious or otherwise. Nevertheless, it's worth remembering that even in the UK, we're barely a generation from the suicide of Alan Turing, that Section 28 was repealed only in 2003 and that homophobic attacks are still very much prevalent in society and are committed predominantly by non-Muslims. Promoting execution of apostates is something completely abhorrent but I would like to see where it is an "alarming majority". It can be argued that the existence of Israel is more a political issue than a strictly religious one in much the same way as the existence of Kosovo.

After a brief flicking through polls, I did notice that the percentages on the wrong side of the polls (if you will) have been on the decline over time. Throughout time, irrational dogma has existed in every religion but has become less pronounced in line with contemporary societal values.
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i have stated that there are strands that are very tolerant such as the beach boys singing surfism. but the %s that do believe in frankly abhorant views are significant if not a majority.

i cannot have for one moment any equivalence between british values on gay rights and islamic. Dont go there or we shall produce some relative polls shall we?

I am not sure either way whether dogma is on the decline. I would say that during the rushdie affair there were far more muslim leaders racing to support his imminent death than we are seeing now with the actual death of the cartoonists
 
Grasshopper said:
There is self-evidently no room for manoeuvre on the part of Muslims, and there is zero appetite to go back to the Middle Ages on the part of everyone else. It's for these reasons that I believe we are ultimately heading for a global conflict between Islam and 'everyone else'. The Jihadis will very-likely get their wish, because there is only so much that 'everyone else' will put up with, before they start seeing every Muslim as a potential threat......something we can see in embryonic form in parts of France already.
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I'm slightly confused by this dismal conclusion, even if I broadly agree with it

The first question I'd seek clarification on is whether or not you believe this is both inevitable and unavoidable? You say "I believe we are ultimately heading for a global conflict between Islam and 'everyone else'". At face value that is pretty unequivocal. the answer would be yes. Yet in the next sentance you 're leaving open the possibility that it isn't. "The Jihadis will very-likely get their wish", which introduces some wiggle room, whilst going onto suggest this will be because the west eventually retaliates "there is only so much that 'everyone else' will put up with" (whilst overlooking the fact that this has always been the case for about 800 years now)

The first thing to establish however is the inevitability of the events that you describe. If you do indeed believe that a global conflict is unavoidable, (is it?) are you therefore calling for war? and if not why?
 
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clivex said:
When you use the word "race" you are not referring to religion. is that difficult to understand??

if you want to backtrack you can but that is exactly what it says on the tin
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You used race, I said many don't believe them to be a race. No backtracking required I'm afraid but good try.
 
clivex said:
cant you read???

and the Jewish belief that they are a race above and better than all others. They are bordering on mad.

or should i say its very interesting that you do not think that this an anti semitic statement. I mean, how much fcking clearer could it be. "race" "mad"

very interesting indeed
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Race is this sense was not what I intended as an ethnic race - that much should be obvious by my continued arguing over whether Jewish people are a race or not.

As to the rest of the quote, are you not familiar with the concept of 'chosenness'? It implies superiority, hence my point. It's not that difficult.
 
Hamm said:
You used race, I said many don't believe them to be a race. No backtracking required I'm afraid but good try.
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and the Jewish belief that they are a race above and better than all others. They are bordering on mad.
 
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