Poll: Brexit - Two Years After

Stay or Leave

  • Stay

    Votes: 23 60.5%

  • Leave

    Votes: 15 39.5%
  • Total voters
    38
Something that seems to be getting overlooked with all the current noise, is that the alterntive trade deals aren't exactly queuing up around the corner at the moment either. Right now, unless there is a fundamental change in position the UK is going to go down the toilet.

People are so entrenched in their position (MP's and the populous) that the end result of this is becoming less important than winning the argument. I don't care whether someone is for or against, what is happening can't continue otherwise it will take decades for the country to recover and we will be a back water country as far as trade is concerned.
 
Len Madeiros said:
Ok, so we send in Mogg or Davies. The EU tell us there is no better deal in town - they don’t need us more than we need them - and the politicians with a backbone do what exactly? Walk away? They try to leave without a deal? There’s no chance of that getting through Parliament either. We have a democratic deadlock. I think we have no choice other than to risk another referendum; or a general election at least.
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But what IF they can get a better deal. The country deserves at least someone who isn’t fundamentally a complete ******* idiot blocking everything with her civil service flunkies.

The letter she has written (by written I mean signed) this morning sums it up. Nearly everything in it is a lie and I just don’t know whether she hasn’t read it, actually believes what it says or is just a duplicitous liar.
 
What do you mean 'what if'?. She's the Prime Minister. She's there through the same democratic process that you say means there shouldn't be a second referendum! Cake and eat it or what!!!
 
Maruco said:
What do you mean 'what if'?. She's the Prime Minister. She's there through the same democratic process that you say means there shouldn't be a second referendum! Cake and eat it or what!!!
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She is there because she stood unchallenged for the Tory leadership not because she was voted for by 17.4m people. She lead a party that lost a majority at the last GE through her ineptitude. She’d have been sacked anywhere else.

I don’t want my cake at all. If there’s a 2nd referendum fine but remain shouldn’t be on it. The decision was made to leave whether you like it or not. Please before you say as well that things have changed so remain should be on it as democracy is fluid I’ll make the point again why haven’t we voted every 2 years since 1975 when we joined and this thing morphed into a different monster. As you say you cake and eat it.
 
Things have not changed, the vote was cast and "Leave the European Union" won. There is an agreed deal on the table to leave so that should be the end of it (shouldn't it?) Except that now each of the 17.4 million think that theirs are the best terms even though that was not on the ballot paper.

That's my thoughts, I'm off this thread now although I'm sure someone will carry on determined to have the last word.
 
SP Only said:
She is there because she stood unchallenged for the Tory leadership not because she was voted for by 17.4m people. She lead a party that lost a majority at the last GE through her ineptitude. She’d have been sacked anywhere else.

I don’t want my cake at all. If there’s a 2nd referendum fine but remain shouldn’t be on it. The decision was made to leave whether you like it or not. Please before you say as well that things have changed so remain should be on it as democracy is fluid I’ll make the point again why haven’t we voted every 2 years since 1975 when we joined and this thing morphed into a different monster. As you say you cake and eat it.
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And the right wing of the Party can't muster anywhere enough support from within to move her on. The same right wing MP's who didn't challenge at the time but have all tried and fallen since. It's all part of the same process. And even if you thought it should change, all the polls indicate that the Country still prefer her as Prime Minister ahead of Corbyn, or any other potential Conservative challenger. And you can say it as many times as you like, they're still irrelevant hypotheticals and red herrings.

You are completely missing the point here. The Brexit the Country voted for can't and won't happen. To say otherwise now is simply burying your head in the sand. The alternative that we're given will be a future economic disaster, and even if it could be slightly better, which is still unlikely, it'll still take decades for the UK to recover. People can sit in their entrenched positions on either side of the argument all they like, but doing so fails to recognise what is ACTUALLY happening right now, and where this ends if something pretty fundamental doesn't happen.

Argue your point all you like. Scream it, shout it, go on a march, whatever. Your right. There shouldn't be a 2nd referendum. But for gods sake wake up to what's actually happening here, and what the consequences will be, and surely you have to reconsider however strongly you feel about it?
 
Maruco said:
And the right wing of the Party can't muster anywhere enough support from within to move her on. The same right wing MP's who didn't challenge at the time but have all tried and fallen since. It's all part of the same process. And even if you thought it should change, all the polls indicate that the Country still prefer her as Prime Minister ahead of Corbyn, or any other potential Conservative challenger. And you can say it as many times as you like, they're still irrelevant hypotheticals and red herrings.

The right wing of the party because they believe in this country. I’m sorry but you really do need to go and have a look through history and see what the proper definition of the right wing is. The challenge is coming it’s timing and to find the most effective point to remove her. Just by getting those letters means nothing unless you can get a majority against her. It will have to be a majority as well because we all know she’ll never resign the daft cow.

You are completely missing the point here. The Brexit the Country voted for can't and won't happen. To say otherwise now is simply burying your head in the sand. The alternative that we're given will be a future economic disaster, and even if it could be slightly better, which is still unlikely, it'll still take decades for the UK to recover. People can sit in their entrenched positions on either side of the argument all they like, but doing so fails to recognise what is ACTUALLY happening right now, and where this ends if something pretty fundamental doesn't happen.

What Brexit did the country vote for exactly? Please enlighten me. My understanding would be Brexit was a vote for us to take back our sovereignty. By taking that back we could then make decisions on all the other issues such as immigration, law, payments etc. By leaving with this deal we get none of that and a chimpanzee could work that out.

As far as an economic disaster yes there will be short term pain. However I’m pretty sure that £39b that we’d be wasting on this deal could be used to mitigate that. Also you’re using numbers based on forecasts from whom? If you say the BOE then lol. The same BOE that have as much forecasting expertise as Micheal Fish on a windy day. I’d also have a fair idea as it’s my job as an economist to understand the situation.


Argue your point all you like. Scream it, shout it, go on a march, whatever. Your right. There shouldn't be a 2nd referendum. But for gods sake wake up to what's actually happening here, and what the consequences will be, and surely you have to reconsider however strongly you feel about it?
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Im more than aware of what’s happening here. A remainer who doesn’t want to leave is driving a car at 100mph towards a brick wall. She will not listen. She will not break. I do consider the consequences and I can assure you this deal will not pass parliament and It will be TM’s intransigence that causes what happens next.
 
SP Only said:
But what IF they can get a better deal. The country deserves at least someone who isn’t fundamentally a complete ******* idiot blocking everything with her civil service flunkies.

The letter she has written (by written I mean signed) this morning sums it up. Nearly everything in it is a lie and I just don’t know whether she hasn’t read it, actually believes what it says or is just a duplicitous liar.
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The EU hold the cards, not us, as has been proved time and again. And it’s the politicians, not the civil servants who drew up her ridiculous red lines. I am a civil servant and know how this stuff works. Politicians always get their way if the will is strong enough and/or the opposition to what you want is weak.
 
Len Madeiros said:
The EU hold the cards, not us, as has been proved time and again. And it’s the politicians, not the civil servants who drew up her ridiculous red lines. I am a civil servant and know how this stuff works. Politicians always get their way if the will is strong enough and/or the opposition to what you want is weak.
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I can’t be arsed to go around in circles with this. The EU don’t hold all the cards at all. I could rattle on about trade deficits, gdp %, currencies etc...but there is no point. It’s quite clear that everybody has a view here which is more than fair and I don’t think they’ll change no matter what we say to each other.

My last point on this i would hope no matter your view that country should come first. However unfortunately the majority of people in this country can only think about what’s best for them and their self interests. It seems to be a sign of the times. I can honestly say that by having my view I don’t actually gain anything from it in fact I’ll be worse off for it due to the industry I work in and where I work. However I make a decision based on the long term good of this country IMO and I can have a clear conscience whatever happens.
 
Desperate Dan said:
SP, can you state what aspects of the deal proposed you disagree with. And what changes would you prefer.
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Also just to reiterate it isn’t a deal it’s a withdrawal agreement. The Political declaration is the outline of what could be a deal. There is no deal just fudge currently.
 
SP Only said:
Im more than aware of what’s happening here. A remainer who doesn’t want to leave is driving a car at 100mph towards a brick wall. She will not listen. She will not break. I do consider the consequences and I can assure you this deal will not pass parliament and It will be TM’s intransigence that causes what happens next.
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Read that back to yourself and then join the rest of the dots. It's pretty much what I said apart from the last bit which is less certain. If it doesn't pass Parliament it's the what happens next bit you don't seem to have nailed..........

You're an Economist, as you say, and I'm sure you're a very good one. But despite that I seem to find that Economists take the same opposite positions on this despite their profession. Maybe because of their personal view on Brexit rather than their skill. Why else do I continue to read such wide varying views on this. I find it's much more sensible to gather all the facts and take my own view rather than those of Economists who seem to be at each extreme and everything in between! Believe me, your view as an Economist does not reassure me at all. Particularly as you've put up the most simplistic argument I've read so far.

I don't wish to argue with you. In fact I'm trying my hardest not to. I simply want the best thing for the long term future of this Country. I repeat again, entrenched positions are the biggest problem of all here, and you appear to be to be entrenched.
 
Maruco said:
Read that back to yourself and then join the rest of the dots. It's pretty much what I said apart from the last bit which is less certain. If it doesn't pass Parliament it's the what happens next bit you don't seem to have nailed..........

You're an Economist, as you say, and I'm sure you're a very good one. But despite that I seem to find that Economists take the same opposite positions on this despite their profession. Maybe because of their personal view on Brexit rather than their skill. Why else do I continue to read such wide varying views on this. I find it's much more sensible to gather all the facts and take my own view rather than those of Economists who seem to be at each extreme and everything in between! Believe me, your view as an Economist does not reassure me at all. Particularly as you've put up the most simplistic argument I've read so far.

I don't wish to argue with you. In fact I'm trying my hardest not to. I simply want the best thing for the long term future of this Country. I repeat again, entrenched positions are the biggest problem of all here, and you appear to be to be entrenched.
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This really is my last point of this thread. Your last paragraph is the very same thing I have just said. However all my views on leave and remain are based on facts that I have researched thoroughly. My decision was based purely on this and not some inherent bias. I’m fact it was a very hard decision for me. However the longer this has gone on the more I have had these facts reinforced.

As I think I said before this deal is horrific and if it was a choice between this deal and remaining I would vote remain. That said the decision to leave has been made so the choice now for me would be this deal or no deal and frankly no deal would be preferable.

I hope whatever happens in 10 years this county is in a better place than where it is at now. I’ve enjoyed the back and forth has filled my last two Sundays with sore fingers and an angry partner.
 
Well said SP. We certainly agree on the overall sentiment. It'd be a shame if it were your last word though.
 
I think the sovereignty argument is hugely overblown. No unelected EU Commissioner ever told our govts that we couldn’t start wars with other nations; conduct our own civil war for 25 years; bring in tuition fees; bring in the council tax and the bedroom tax. However, I know we have no control over the implementation of the single market and freedom of movement. That said, SP, it has actually been a pleasure to debate Brexit with you. I’ve fallen out with loads of people about this, but we’ve avoided raising the volume in this discussion.
 
It's based on the simple idea that leaving the EU is a very bad move. If a second referendum confirmed the first one we remainers would have to accept that there was no way back.

The economy has already nosedived in the last two years, with the pound and euro edging closer to parity compared with £1 being about €1.40 before the referendum.

Trading will go on as it has to but there's nothing now to stop other countries being much more hard-nosed with us (and vice versa, obviously) but I can't see how that can be a good thing and that is only one aspect of hundreds related to our relationship with Europe.

I really do hope to fvck that all us remainers are wrong about how damaging Brexit going to be but I'll believe it when it happens.
 
Did anyone catch up with what Gareth Southgate said last night about Brexit on ITV 4? He mentioned racism and racial undertones, am interested to hear his diagnosis of the situation.
 
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I think leaving the EU is probably going to be one of the biggest mistakes that I have known any UK government make in my lifetime.
I voted to remain and certainly would not change my vote, although I do wonder whether the damage has already been done.
 
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I am now of the belief that Brexit won’t go ahead - it’s simply too crazy an idea. We are peering into the abyss, the country is starting to see just how far the fall is, and there is a growing desire to start backing away from the cliff-edge.

As for the damage already being done, it undoubtedly has, but the situation is reversible. Grasshopper’s Post-Brexit 6-Step Recovery Plan is as folllows:

1. Police anti-EU hate crime with absolute vigour.
2. Vote Leave politicians into oblivion at the next GE
3. Prosecute those in the Leave vanguard for misconduct in public office.
4. Convene a Royal Commission to investigate how we ended up here, and prosecute more bas*tards on the back of it.
5. Make learning about the EU a fundamental of the national cirriculum; in the same way we that we educate our children about how the UK Govt works.
6. Seek to convene an EU-wide review to address issues with the current framework, given the Brexit vote, and the rise of right-wing, anti-EU populism in some EU states

I’d also pay some form of reparations to the EU budget, for wasting the time, money and energy of all 27 countries over the last 30 months.

You’re welcome.
 
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