...I'll settle for that.Also note the 3yos that have won it that have failed the following year: Carnegie, Helissio, Montjeu, Bago, Hurricane Run... This gives Workforce it all to do (as much as I love the horse).
Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe 2011
- Thread starter Gamla Stan
- Start date
...I'll settle for that.Also note the 3yos that have won it that have failed the following year: Carnegie, Helissio, Montjeu, Bago, Hurricane Run... This gives Workforce it all to do (as much as I love the horse).
EC1
On a break
at level weights Bago wouldn't have won though
Helissio had a hard campaign, over inadequate trip , ground against and Peintre was top class
Bago was a lucky winner
Hurricane was nothing special
Carneige was average
Montjeu was not healthy and had a tough opponent in Sinndar
the only thing about the weight for age is allowance is if it is one pound more or less but nothing different than that
Bago was a lucky winner
Hurricane was nothing special
Carneige was average
Montjeu was not healthy and had a tough opponent in Sinndar
the only thing about the weight for age is allowance is if it is one pound more or less but nothing different than that
Okay make excuses for all of them and ignore what is staring you in the face!... i.e. that they were up against it vs the 3yos.
Last edited:
EC1
On a break
in your world Steve the Arc would be without 3yo runners..they would just be run elsewhere
looks a bad move..i'm out
Steve, no offence, but I think it is you who is missing what is staring you in the face! It is very difficult for any 3yo horse to maintain (or even improve) his form, or hold it, into the autumn of his 4yo season. This has been seen time and again.
Many different organisations have spent countless hours I imagine working out an appropriate and fair scale - I am interested in your argument, and with your background, you should have no problem putting together a reasonable argument backed with mathematical evidence. The debate otherwise is a pointless one.
But, I am confused ... you seem to be saying 2 different things (they are not an either or) - the wfa scale is incorrect and biased towards 3yos, and that it should be abolished - which is your main point here>
in your world Steve the Arc would be without 3yo runners..they would just be run elsewhere
looks a bad move..i'm out
If you want to call the Arc a championship race then yes... By all means retain the WFA scale for other races where you want to give the younger horses weight concessions.
What I am saying is the same as I've been saying all along... that the WFA scale should be abolished for championship races.
It depends how much of a concession you want to give 3yos as to whether it needs to be otherwise revised.
Sarafina gets a fillies allowance so that will help her. Nevertheless she'll be up against it to beat no better than decent 3yos.
EC1
On a break
why not just bar all 3yo's from taking part Steve?
following your argument.. that would encourage even more owners to keep their horses in training..or would it?
wfa isn't a weight concession..never has been or will be...it enables us to watch horses run against each other we would never see otherwise...thats all its there for
to limit the competition between 3yo and 4yo is madness imo..just for sake of the word championship..i don't really care about the word..not enough to ruin races that have been around since year 1
if you want to make your own championship list up..then just do what i did and knock 5 lengths of all 3yo's..you would then have your championship horses..a cracking list remains i'll tell you
imo..that gives best of both worlds..the "championship" lovers have their champ..and other 99.999% of us would be able to watch 3yo race against 4yo
i don't see why you would ruin a race when you already have your championship winner
Last edited:
If you barred 3yos from taking part it could not be called an All-age championship, but simply a race for older horses.
I like to see 3yos win when they are truly good enough (although few are truly good enough). To prove it they need to all carry the same weight.
I like to see 3yos win when they are truly good enough (although few are truly good enough). To prove it they need to all carry the same weight.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
This has to be one of the most boring debates I've ever read on TH. 5 days before the biggest race of the year and we're basically debating how much 3.5kg affects a 500kg animal against another 500kg animal. 
Back to the race itself... 19 remain at the first forfeit stage, but it looks unlikely that Connections of Nathaniel and Meandre will stump up the €100,000 supplementary fee… If no 3yos turn up this would greatly enhance the chance of the older horses.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
Why does it look unlikely Meandre will be supplemented? Strong on Betfair and in the betting all week in reaction to the likely ground.
Be amazed if they supplement Nathaniel though.
Be amazed if they supplement Nathaniel though.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
Danedream is also likely to be supplemented tomorrow.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
Where have you read mixed messages Steve? Interested as I'm on at three figure prices and the markets this week seemed to suggest he would be running.
EC1
On a break
it wouldn't prove they are just good enough though..it would prove that the winner was more than good enough..which is disadvantaging a horse short of maturity...why should a 3yo have to be 8lbs better than it should be to win a race?
whether you like it or not a 3yo isn't mature...your idea would disadvantage 95% of 3yo's running in it
the actual title you would have is "all age championship favouring older horses"
EC1
On a break
This has to be one of the most boring debates I've ever read on TH. 5 days before the biggest race of the year and we're basically debating how much 3.5kg affects a 500kg animal against another 500kg animal.
its about 5 lengths ...and in comparison to 1.5 miles...50ft isn't much either as a fraction
agree though a little..can't really understand Steve's view at all..but worth chewing the fat over
beats..will Sarafina win..every other post though :lol:
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
It depends how you would define maturity? Also, when is a three year old fully matured?
It surely depends on the horse in question.
It surely depends on the horse in question.
Maybe they are more hopeful of reversing form with Reliable Man on what is likely to be very different going than Fabre appeared to be (I'm never too sure how to read his comments anyway)... It's a lot of money to find out, then again no doubt the Rothschilds can afford it!
Last edited:
horses generally do not stop growing until they are about four, but obviously some will be a bit ahead of others.