Well not that I can prove it but my opinion is fully from an impartial non betting point of view. It's actually part of a bigger view that this is a systemic issue where the big trainers, jockeys and horses can be ridden and schooled on racecourses with no questions asked by stewards or the BHA just because of who they are.
QM Champion Chase betting
- Thread starter Tout Seul
- Start date
Well not that I can prove it but my opinion is fully from an impartial non betting point of view. It's actually part of a bigger view that this is a systemic issue where the big trainers, jockeys and horses can be ridden and schooled on racecourses with no questions asked by stewards or the BHA just because of who they are.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Uxizandre finished in front of both them, jumped very economically in that race and is 16s NRNB. If we can forgive a poor performance on very deep ground in the Dial-a-Bet where he went off too fast then that's a tidy price.
links781
Journeyman
Agree with the above,Kings horse looks an each way play at 16's.Personally I'd wait until the day....ground dependant.was absolutely gutted that the aeroplane didn't find today,I backed him for QMCC this morning with the view of him winning.The weight of the money would suggest they expected him to win today.Surely he will come on for the run and may well turn tables with DB come March.I only hope they don't go to Cheltenham set on riding him conservatively.
I STILL BELIEVE.
I STILL BELIEVE.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
I was shocked when I read SP's post I couldn't believe my eyes.
What some fail to realise is there's a professional jockey sitting on the horse who knows him like the back of his hand.
He can feel the horse under him and knows when the engine is starting to shut down. He clearly knew he couldn't win....hell a blind man running for a bus could see it.......and with no danger to him behind he let him come home in his own time...............Why on earth would anyone have an issue with that unless he was talking through his pocket?
I lost a fair bit but at least I have the savvy to know I wasn't hard done by.
If Sprinter had run a few weeks back and that had been his 2nd run back then people would have room for complaint but ffs the horse has been off for a year +.....all things considered he's ran a great race and only a complete moron would write him off. On that run he would only need to improve a few pounds to kick Dodging Bullets into the next county.
His nose bleed isn't a worry Nicky nose how to fix that :lol:
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Really SP!!! can I suggest you go back and watch the race again?
There are 2 ways you can look at this. Either Sprinter Sacre is not the horse he was or he was well short of his peak.
I tend to lean towards that latter. I had 2 hobbies in my younger days. Riding out at racing stables and Karate
Before I came to Thailand 16 years ago I used to fight in competitions.
Arriving here I hadn't trained for a couple of years. Met a guy called Mark Stewart who runs a club called the Boxer Rebellion and teaches Jeet Kun Do.
He convinced me to join and within a month or so we began sparring.....I was fit enough but my timing had gone completely and I tired much quicker than usual.
Mark could see it never pushed me because there was nothing to push
Few months down the line thing were back to normal but the point is you can't just walk in and expect things to be the same and no matter how much someone pushes you there's no sense in it .
Exactly the same with Golf....I played off about 15 hadn't played for 7 years timing gone to pot hit 128 in a charity competition recently.
What got me about your post is you obviously didn't have time to study the race ..you jumped in straight in and showed no sympathy whatsoever for the horse and expected Barry to have knocked 7 lumps out of him when clearly he had gone.
Go back and look there are several pointers that the horse A. wasn't totally fit and B the tank was emptying.
When you are 100% in sport everything is so much easier and your timing spot on.
At several fences where Sprinter Sacre would normally gain yards in the air he lost ground. He never made any real errors but compared to the way he can jump it was a pretty poor round. His timing where he takes off that half stride earlier and soars through the air was only noticeable at a couple of fences.
The real clue came just before and after they turned for home. With petrol still in the tank in a matter of strides Sprinter Sacre as the came to the turn into the straight left dodging bullets for dead. He just eased away from him in exactly the same fashion as he did with Al Ferof in the Supreme.......Then like in the Supreme he suddenly was going nowhere. the ground gained was just as quickly lost by Dodging Bullets who was actually under pressure.
If Sprinter Scare had been 100% that race would have been over there and then but Barry sensibly accepted the fact there was a tiring hose under him with very little to give and no way was he going to win.
If he had knocked 10 bells out of him and he would still have been beaten the same distance probably further as he would have responded then fell in a heap and finished legless......Any jockey will tell you that and Barry is one of the best around.....you hear it every day."No sense in flogging a dead horse"
The great thing is those couple of leaps he put in and the way he eased ahead of Dodging Bullets for that short period are signs saying he is still got it and trust me in March he'll prove it if he has come out of this race mentally and physically unscathed.
Not even Robert Earnshaw who would pull his own mother in would have pulled Nicky Henderson or Barry in in for that. You are so far off the mark with that you really should take a reality check.
Hope you don't find my post offensive your original post infuriated me and I should have asked if you were on drugs.....I should have just assumed you were off your rocker
PS you are deluding yourself if you think the stewards wouldn't pull NJH in..he the Queens trainer or not has been there already in case you missed it. BG never stops horses and always gives them the best of rides with the horses best interest at heart....guys a saint ffs
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
You are spot on Fonz except for the fact you got the wrong Nicky and the wrong horse:lol:
Broadly agree with this, though Somersby probably ran close to his best, as he has in a few strongly run races around this course.
SS ran a RPR of 171 yesterday, which is some way below his best (190), and while he might find the few pounds he needs (SDG's/DB's pb 174) for fitness and a more positive ride, he'd be long odds against to ever get near his former superiority.
Roddy Owen
At the Start
Def some bleeding there with this one and Simonsig although I would expect a different result next time
He has already said he didn't bet on it. If you haven't seen that then fair enough but take at face value otherwise.
archie
Senior Jockey
I'm beginning to think that we have a situation that has parallels with both Master Minded and Istabraq. MM clearly declined after his first stunning win in the QM. The next race he was beaten at Aintree and that might have been the first time that he hurt during a race. He was still good enough to win the next year but was at least a stone below his best and never again approached that best. SS went on to win well at Aintree and less well at Punchestown and, laudable as it was to show him off in Ireland, I wonder if doing the 3 was actually overdoing it. Presumably SS hurt when he had his heart problem and they understandably declined to put him in the position of hurting yesterday so we really don't know how he'll react if he hurts in the QM. This is where the comparison with Istabraq comes in because everyone knew that he would be pulled up if he didn't feel right that last time. I think you have to assume that connections will take the same view with SS unless there's a solid reason not to run so backing him NRNB isn't quite the safety net that it would normally be.
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What is so hard to believe that I didn't have a bet on and have my opinion? Just because I see it a different way doesn't make it so. Anyone that bet SS would have needed balls of steel and that's not for me. I can assure you I've backed plenty of non jiggers in the past or horses where the jockey has made a pigs ear of it but that's the name of the game and I just accept it for what it is.
If you read my last comment you would understand in my eyes yesterday is part of a bigger problem in racing and not just an isolated case.
Though absent for entirely different reasons, I'd say there are parallels also to be drawn with SS and Cue Card. Both horses depend on pace and slick jumping to separate them from the rest, and CC was reportedly 'looked after' at Exeter, but not once this season has he jumped with the same elan he had previously, and whether it's mental or physical, hasn't got near to being the horse he was before his time away..
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Really SP!!! can I suggest you go back and watch the race again?
There are 2 ways you can look at this. Either Sprinter Sacre is not the horse he was or he was well short of his peak.
I tend to lean towards that latter. I had 2 hobbies in my younger days. Riding out at racing stables and Karate
Before I came to Thailand 16 years ago I used to fight in competitions.
Arriving here I hadn't trained for a couple of years. Met a guy called Mark Stewart who runs a club called the Boxer Rebellion and teaches Jeet Kun Do.
He convinced me to join and within a month or so we began sparring.....I was fit enough but my timing had gone completely and I tired much quicker than usual.
Mark could see it never pushed me because there was nothing to push
Few months down the line thing were back to normal but the point is you can't just walk in and expect things to be the same and no matter how much someone pushes you there's no sense in it .
Exactly the same with Golf....I played off about 15 hadn't played for 7 years timing gone to pot hit 128 in a charity competition recently.
What got me about your post is you obviously didn't have time to study the race ..you jumped in straight in and showed no sympathy whatsoever for the horse and expected Barry to have knocked 7 lumps out of him when clearly he had gone.
Go back and look there are several pointers that the horse A. wasn't totally fit and B the tank was emptying.
When you are 100% in sport everything is so much easier and your timing spot on.
At several fences where Sprinter Sacre would normally gain yards in the air he lost ground. He never made any real errors but compared to the way he can jump it was a pretty poor round. His timing where he takes off that half stride earlier and soars through the air was only noticeable at a couple of fences.
The real clue came just before and after they turned for home. With petrol still in the tank in a matter of strides Sprinter Sacre as the came to the turn into the straight left dodging bullets for dead. He just eased away from him in exactly the same fashion as he did with Al Ferof in the Supreme.......Then like in the Supreme he suddenly was going nowhere. the ground gained was just as quickly lost by Dodging Bullets who was actually under pressure.
If Sprinter Scare had been 100% that race would have been over there and then but Barry sensibly accepted the fact there was a tiring hose under him with very little to give and no way was he going to win.
If he had knocked 10 bells out of him and he would still have been beaten the same distance probably further as he would have responded then fell in a heap and finished legless......Any jockey will tell you that and Barry is one of the best around.....you hear it every day."No sense in flogging a dead horse"
The great thing is those couple of leaps he put in and the way he eased ahead of Dodging Bullets for that short period are signs saying he is still got it and trust me in March he'll prove it if he has come out of this race mentally and physically unscathed.
Not even Robert Earnshaw who would pull his own mother in would have pulled Nicky Henderson or Barry in in for that. You are so far off the mark with that you really should take a reality check.
Hope you don't find my post offensive your original post infuriated me and I should have asked if you were on drugs.....I should have just assumed you were off your rocker
PS you are deluding yourself if you think the stewards wouldn't pull NJH in..he the Queens trainer or not has been there already in case you missed it. BG never stops horses and always gives them the best of rides with the horses best interest at heart....guys a saint ffs
I didn't find any of it offensive until you started talking about only being able to play off 15 in golf go and get some more practice man....
As for NJH please don't get me started!
Roddy Owen
At the Start
Jamie is very confident for the champion with his if nothing goes wrong between now and then.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
I can't have that as far as Cue Card is concerned, reet.
Exeter was way too short a trip, and he was (as usual) conceding lumps. And we all knew beforehand that he wouldn't get the KG trip.
Digger has also written CC off, but I think it's a mistake. Neither race this season would show him to best effect for the reasons given, and he is for keeping onside unless and until, he disappoints when conditions are in his favour.
PS. I have a few quid running for me at 44+ in the Ryanair, and there's every chance my position is clouded by greed. :lol:
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edgt
Senior Jockey
Compare SS return run with Denman's at Kempton after a similar condition or say Big Bucks' in last years Cleeve Hurdle and how would it rate ?
2 mile chasers have a level of bravery that they can fall at speed, get up and race with absolutely no memory of the fall next time out.
Moscow Flyer, Azertyioup, Latelomne and others have proven that.
2 mile chasers have a level of bravery that they can fall at speed, get up and race with absolutely no memory of the fall next time out.
Moscow Flyer, Azertyioup, Latelomne and others have proven that.
Either way this is shaping up to be a very decent contest with Champagne Fever and Al Ferof being rerouted to it.
My take on the race was that they have had the kid gloves on him for ages and didn't really want to take them off. That would have been the hardest he's worked since Kempton and I think he'll come on for it. He was not quite as flamboyant as he can be but that should have given him confidence. I still think he's the most likely winner but it's a competitive looking race.
My take on the race was that they have had the kid gloves on him for ages and didn't really want to take them off. That would have been the hardest he's worked since Kempton and I think he'll come on for it. He was not quite as flamboyant as he can be but that should have given him confidence. I still think he's the most likely winner but it's a competitive looking race.
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
I disagree A and doubt if much has changed. Sprinter Sacre and Sire De Grugy despite their setbacks are still the best 2 milers in the country and one of them imo will take the crown again.
Just about everyone including Dodging Bullet's owner thinks Sprinter Sacre will reverse placings with him.
Al Ferof hasn't run over 2 miles for as many years and simply hasn't got the mid race pace to keep tabs on top 2 milers.
Champagne Fever has his limits and has won nothing of note since his hurdling days and is unlikely to change that in this sort of company.
Anything else entered would need to improve 2 stone to get involved
The sign were certainly there that Sprinter Sacre is on his way back to his best and we hear from Roddy that Jamie Moore is very confident in SDG's chances.
Just about everyone including Dodging Bullet's owner thinks Sprinter Sacre will reverse placings with him.
Al Ferof hasn't run over 2 miles for as many years and simply hasn't got the mid race pace to keep tabs on top 2 milers.
Champagne Fever has his limits and has won nothing of note since his hurdling days and is unlikely to change that in this sort of company.
Anything else entered would need to improve 2 stone to get involved
The sign were certainly there that Sprinter Sacre is on his way back to his best and we hear from Roddy that Jamie Moore is very confident in SDG's chances.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
He was also different in the fact he was built like a tank and probably a loss less fit than Sprinter Sacre was on his return.
PN probably didn't have much choice other than to train him on the racecourse at the time.
The thing is Denman who was older that Sprinter Sacre at the time came bouncing back to something close to his very best.
Some would argue but the fact is when he finished 2nd to Kauto Star he beat Neptune Collonges exactly the same distance as he had the year before.
Was never any doubt in my mind that the form was probably spot on and a lot nearer the truth than Neptune running Kauto to a short head at levels.
Not that it's something I want to get into along debate about but Denman's recovery played a big part in my confidence that Sprinter Sacre would be back.
I'm damn sure if Denman had run as good a race as Sprinter Scare did on his return he would not have started at 7/1 for the Gold Cup.
All that aside it's difficult for me to swallow that Sprinter Sacre was beaten by Dodging Bullets and I am not kidding myself he has to show one helluva lot of improvement if he is going to win another QMCC
but surely after such a good comeback that looks on the cards
The form book may say that Sire De Grugy isn't in the same class and perhaps he isn't but he's not a horse I'd like to get into a fight with up the Cheltenham hill and if Sprinter Sacre isn't back to his best and can't dispose of him coming down the hill it may come to that.
The only certainty is:- NJH is in for a few sleepless nights between now and then
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
They had a nice easy hack round that day (the only way Kauto could win a Gold Cup, just like in 07)
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
In your hole.
Get over it......Denman couldn't lace Kauto's boots, and was better-off in handicaps.
