QM Champion Chase betting

Tanlic said:
Barry read my post and thought that sound right I'll say that:lol:

Seriously though any who thinks Sprinter Sacre won't strip much fitter at Cheltenham is deluding themself.

If someone thinks he won't turn up at all that's one thing but to expect a repeat of Saturdays performance is shooting at the moon.

PN reckons Dodging Bullets will improve again but if Barry's summary is correct all he has done is beaten a horse who was beaten from along way out.
Granted there was others well behind but Somersby hated the ground and if you take SS out of the race he's beaten Twinlight 8 lengths
If that is QMCC form then we are in big trouble.

Funny old game racing had DB stayed at Home and Sprinter Sacre beaten Twinlight 3 lengths the fact he had finished 7 lengths in front of Somersby
would have most people thinking Twinlight ran a fantastic race and Sprinter Sacre would be evens.

The actual form should go where it belongs.......in the bin.

Sprinter Sacre only need improve about 7 or 8lbs to win the QMCC and there's 20lbs in there somewhere and if anyone can find it it's Nicky Henderson.

Currently 11/4 there's not much sense in risking an AP bet as they have no intentions of running him between now and then and neither
has PN any intentions of running DB.

The only way the market will change dramatically is if SDG fails in his come back which is highly unlikely because if Nicky Henderson shouted from the rooftops that Sprinter Scare
was better than ever there would still be plenty out to get him until they see him on the course on the day.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, and I really hope I've got this hopelessly wrong because I love the horse, but NJH looked totally gutted after the race. Surely the horse had to be 95-100% fit in order for him to run, knowing he had a previous heart condition - they wouldn't run the risk of him being less than racetrack fit. Will BG ever get after the horse from now on, knowing what he knows about SS and him being the jockey that pulled SS with the heart condition? Human nature might dictate that he never will. So, what you saw on Saturday may be the limits of BG getting serious with SS.
 
Grasshopper said:
Have just watched it again, and Kauto actually does go OK for the first circuit (it was the second he wasn't fluent at, rather than the fourth).

The damage was done at the first two in the straight at the end of the first circuit, and then a further error at the first one in the back-straight. I think the race was lost over those three fences. Given Kauto made-up about 8L on Neptune Collonges in the last 3/4 mile, I can't have it that he was taken out of his comfort zone.
Click to expand...

There's an Irish fella called Ruby Walsh who would agree with you.

That's what really got me at the time. Kauto was clearly beaten a long way from home Ruby said he was never travelling but he was ignored.

People just refused to believe that Kauto had an off day but when he stuffed Denman, he wasn't right, something they had gone into the race believing so the Neptune similarity was ignored because it never fitted in with their argument. Nevermind the fact Denman went on to win the Hennessy again.

Kauto at his peak had something Denman never had and that was the ability to quicken on a sixpence.

I really didn't want to get into this but for me an on song Kauto Star was different gravy to Denman and never in a month of Sundays would Denman have beat him on any course.

Anyone who thinks Kauto Star was at his best when Denman beat him in the Gold Cup has a very short memory is suffering from partial blindness with a bit of Denny Crane mad cow disease thrown in for good measure :p Anyone who sights the defeat of both by Long Run as reliable form should be locked up in Arkham Asylum with the joker
 
Last edited:
Sprinter Sacre can now be built up for the Queen Mother Champion Chase and - if he stays healthy - I’m sure you will see a fitter and sharper horse come March.
Click to expand...

Nobody could disagree with a word of Barry Geraghty's conclusion.

I'm sure if SS stays healthy (by the way BG says the nose bleed was 2 on a scale of 5, NJH said 2.5 on a scale of 4) that he will be fitter and sharper in March, but that is a long way from saying he will be the force of old, or up to regaining his crown. He will have to improve a lot more than 7 lengths, Tanlic, because Dodging Bullets would presumably have found a bit extra if SS had got to his quarters. Dodging Bullets will also be a bit sharper and fitter himself on the big day.

I think SS needs to improve by at least a stone on Saturday's performance and Len is right to ask whether they will be willing to push him hard enough to achieve that.

Like Len, I too hope I'm wrong and we get to see this great horse once more in full flow
 
Last edited:
Why include a race where both were beaten then, Tigger? It's not like anyone think the Commander was better than either of them.

Re "moving on", see my last comment - agreed!! :-)
 
Last edited:
Len Madeiros said:
I'm not sure, and I really hope I've got this hopelessly wrong because I love the horse, but NJH looked totally gutted after the race. Surely the horse had to be 95-100% fit in order for him to run, knowing he had a previous heart condition - they wouldn't run the risk of him being less than racetrack fit. Will BG ever get after the horse from now on, knowing what he knows about SS and him being the jockey that pulled SS with the heart condition? Human nature might dictate that he never will. So, what you saw on Saturday may be the limits of BG getting serious with SS.
Click to expand...

I will let you into a wee secret but don't tell anyone :ninja:

The worry was that asking Sprinter Sacre to do too much at home because the Seven Barrows Gallops are on the rise like most gallops.

Quite a climb from bottom to top and not the ideal situation to be finding out if the horse might keel over despite the chances being minimal

It's a safe bet the fastest Sprinter Sacre was allowed to go in the last year prior to Ascot was at Newbury which as we know is a nice even galloping track

No doubt when they knew all was well he would be allowed to stretch out at home but in the short time available there was no way he could possibly be anywhere near as fit as normal.

As they have pointed out the timing is perfect and after a 2 week cooling off period a few medial checks and it will be back to his old routine prior to the heart problem.

Come Cheltenham he'll have done plenty hard work and if by any remote chance something gets him off the bridle BG will ride him out like any other horse.

The only reason he wouldn't is if the horse showed signs of distress.....his heart played up again....what I understand of the ailment it very very seldom does. It's not life threatening and disappears by itself apparently and it appears to have done so.
 
Tanlic said:
Anyone who thinks Kauto Star was at his best when Denman beat him in the Gold Cup has a very short memory
Click to expand...

We've all agreed Kauto wasn't at his best, but Denman played a massive part in that below bar performance. Imagine that race being run without Denman, without his brutal injection of pain as they went on out onto the second cicuit. No way doesn't Kauto Star **** the race under those circumstances.
 
Kauto was beaten by the three mistakes, Euro....long before Denman pushed on between the ditches on the second circuit.
 
The mistakes just highlighted the fact he never really travelled during the race.
Despite that I was impressed by his attitude to stick at it.

Denman was a worthy winner on the day.
 
I always thought Denmans Gold Cup was his best performance. That run broke Kauto and Denman and it definitely took them a while to come back from it, in particular Denman.

It's also fair to say Kauto made mistakes that day, and whilst I would place him slightly ahead of Denman in the overall pantheon of racing greats, Denman won that race fair and square and was the best horse on the day.

Both Legends and we tend to forget that the late 2000's/early teens were probably a golden age in both codes when slagging off today's crops.
 
Last edited:
No-one disputes that Denman was the better horse on the day, Aragorn. It's the dewey-eyed "Kauto was broken" horse-sh*it that gets flamed.

Kauto had a history of occassional and well-documented jumping problems. You cannot make hose kinds of errors against a horse with Denman's class. That is the start and the end of it, and a year later, when he did jump well, Kauto hammered Denman with his head in his chest.

can we please now stop this and get back to how far Sacre wins the Champion Chase?
 
Last edited:
Ground and a relentless pace either forced the jumping errors or Kauto just had an off day.... It's just opinion really... What is fact is that they were both f@cking knackered at the end of the race :D And both are legends.

I still think Sprinter will win but by a diminishing few lengths.... I'm not sure he will ever be the same horse but I really hope he hammers them and shows he's as good as ever.
 
Denman was probably the best jumping staying chaser I've seen and Kauto was the best traveller with the biggest engine. With a clean round Kauto would win every time, but as they say you have to jump. Kauto was the class act for me, and we were just lucky to have the two of them together at the same time.

I hate to bring Arkle into this, but in the pantheon of greats they are the the top three. I could be really mischievous and spark a very old debate now about what order you'd put them in and totally f*ck this thread up! :whistle:
 
Last edited:
Desert Orchid said:
I'd have Dessie maybe just ahead of Kauto and Denman and miles behind Arkle.
Click to expand...

There's a surprise you supporting your namesake:D Denman doesn't even come into the calculations according to Timeform best rating was 183 with 3lbs between Kauto 191 and Dessie 187

But then they rated Long Run higher than Denman.....shows what they know.

The sad thing about these ratings is that if you meet a horse on the way down at the right time and beat him you end up with a completely false rating.

If a horse is overrated you reek the benefit so comparing era to era becomes nigh on impossible.........so the best thing you can do is agree to differ......unless you disagree with me then you're def wrong :lol:
 
I love Hidden Cyclone, but I cannot have it that he's good enough to win a G1 over 2m - even in a race where there are question marks against Sacre and SDG.
 
Last edited:
Was just looking over HC form there... He's never actually won a Grade 1 at any distance. And from what I can see, since chasing, he is 1/5 over the minimum trip. That win was in Oct. 2012 in a G3 at Naas beating Foildubh & Raitlin. He's also fallen on 2 of his last 3 runs. Shortened to 20/1 NRNB most places since Segal put it up. Even if you did fancy him, I'm not sure there is much incentive to taking a price now. Not for me either!
 
Agree highly unlikely to win. However, as you say if SS and SDG run below par, if indeed they run. 33s to hit the frame ain't too shabby in my view. I know you can throw in DB and CF to name 2 that you would put ahead of him, but worse e/w punts maybe.
 
I'm genuinely not convinced, Frankel........I'd have at least a half-dozen ahead of him......and that's after ignoring SS and SDG.
 
Back
Top