QM Champion Chase betting

I'm going to guess your 2nd point should be the other way around?

I've watched the race again Grassy and I don't see what you see. Connections don't seem too concerned either.

im the same. Haven't watched it again but will but couldn't see how he was beaten before first mistake. It's uncharacteristic too.

I also don't get how his form last season is supposedly overrated. He just won. Usually pretty comfortably. Does he have to win by 20 lengths I stead of 10?

either way, would much rather he won than anything else in the race. As would many i suspect .
 
I think another thing to consider is history. Of all Cheltenham's novice races, the Arkle is about the best pointer to future success in its corresponding open equivalent

Sprinter Sacre, Sizing Europe, Voy Por Ustedes, Azertyuiop, and Moscow Flyer have all won both races, Moscow was a two time winner, and if you stretch a broken renewal, Flagship Uberallaes is another qualifier. You can probably account for 7 of the last 14 renewals on Arkie winners alone. If it weren't for a nostril hair, Champagne Fever would be joining that list. In doing so it would have been have been his third festival win in a different race each time, and he'd be going for an unprecedented fourth this year where ever he turns up. On paper at least, he looks like having better credentials than Dodging Bullets

Whats the profile of those that have won two out of nine chases?
 
Our bookie man on The Morning Line spoke of the possibility of SS being as high as 7 or 8/1 on the day!

Not a chance. Someone should have pulled him for that comment to be honest, or at least pressed him as to how he's worked that out. The only way he's that price is if Nicky Henderson takes the ride himself and UDS enters the fray.

I can only suspect he was using the 7/1 that Denman was returned at as a guide, but that's really lazy if that's what he'd doing. Kauto Star, Exotic Dancer, and Neptunes Collonges gave the field depth, plus the fact a Gold Cup is a bigger field anyway. Sprinter Sacres return was a lot more of an encouraging reintroduction than Denmans at Kempton, and there were no particularly positive vibes coming from Nicholls (until after the race)
 
Not a chance. Someone should have pulled him for that comment to be honest, or at least pressed him as to how he's worked that out. The only way he's that price is if Nicky Henderson takes the ride himself and UDS enters the fray.
Nevison made a similar comments on RUK this afternoon and is complete gash. Sprinter was punted first time back this season and went evens to 4/6 in the last 5 minutes before the off. He's a peoples horse and will be punted again at the festival. 11/4 NRNB is a gift and goes off 7/4 or shorter on the day
 
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That's cfs profile. Frankly it's not inspiring is it? Regardless of festival form, which includes last years unexpected defeat, it includes too many unwhelmimg performances .
 
That's cfs profile. Frankly it's not inspiring is it? Regardless of festival form, which includes last years unexpected defeat, it includes too many unwhelmimg performances .

His point was probably that he's actually 2 from 7, not 9. Still not a great record admittedly.
 
That's cfs profile. Frankly it's not inspiring is it? Regardless of festival form, which includes last years unexpected defeat, it includes too many unwhelmimg performances .

Well if his profile is 2 from 7 then that's his profile. Which is why the question makes no sense. If you'd said something like he's 28% over fences, what is the profile of a normal champion chaser, then that might have made sense

You could probably find a handicapper that's risen from 100 to 135 based on winning 5 from 6 (or something like that) so 5 from 6 is his profile but its doesn't make him a champion chaser.

I seem to recall Edredon Bleu had only won 2 of his 9 most recent chase starts before winning a champion, or was it 2 races in 2 seasons?. Big Zeb fell so many times he couldn't be too high on the list either. Indeed, he went hurdling to rebuild his confidence, which come to think of it, is what Newmill did. He'd probably be close to 2 wins from 7 over fences too, and he wouldn't have been taking in races like the Arkle or King George either, concentrating instead on much softer assignments

A big part of assessing this race has to be taking a view on the strength of the opposition. Where exactly is it?

Sprinter Sacre is the only one you'd be genuinely scared of. The only other horse that's ever beaten Champagne Fever over fences who looks like he could line up is Al Ferof, and that was by a narrowest margins in the King George. Champagne Fever has been in against much better opponents than anything but Sprinter Sacre.
 
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Nevison made a similar comments on RUK this afternoon and is complete gash. Sprinter was punted first time back this season and went evens to 4/6 in the last 5 minutes before the off. He's a peoples horse and will be punted again at the festival. 11/4 NRNB is a gift and goes off 7/4 or shorter on the day

The only way I can see him being that kind of price is for 15 mins on a £10 maximum stake for a promotional item.

I expect Nicky to offer some upbeat reports between now and then (it's not as if he really wants Champagne Fever or Al Ferof turning up) so he's bound to try playing a few mind games if he thinks he can scare off just one potentially threat who could be re-routed. As soon as Geraghty tells everyone about the best piece of final work he's ever done etc, the punters will storm into him. I'd expect to see him much nearer to 11/8 on the day than I would 8/1. I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see him nudging even money, although those who think he's the most likely winner but don't fancy the price are likely to look for the e/w value instead which is bound to control his returned SP I'd have thought. My guess is 6/4 to evens. Sire de Grugy is the horse I expect to see 8/1+
 
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While SDG would be better off without making the mistakes it should help get his eye in.
Funnily enough it was the same fence Kings Palace made a horlicks of so they may have been a reason.
For the QMCC you would prefer horses that have a clear run up to the race.
Our bookie man on The Morning Line spoke of the possibility of SS being as high as 7 or 8/1 on the day!
The market must be quite fragile so and as this thread is essentially a betting one we should not be teasing out any value?
As a euro each way man Hidden Cyclone was value at 33s.
Now he is value at roughly twice Champagne Fever's price to me at any rate.
Cf is value at 7 or 8 but the top three are not really value at the minute though SDG is getting there.

33/1 Hidden Cyclone e/w is a ticket worth having as you'd be confident he will run his race. At 14/1 now, I find it easy to pass. There is a strong case to be made for Dodging Bullets going off favourite in this race based purely on the formbook and not what Nicky does or says or what the punters back. 9/2 e/w is as solid a bet as you can have at the festival right now.
 
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Well if his profile is 2 from 7 then that's his profile. Which is why the question makes no sense. If you'd said something like he's 28% over fences, what is the profile of a normal champion chaser, then that might have made sense

You could probably find a handicapper that's risen from 100 to 135 based on winning 5 from 6 (or something like that) so 5 from 6 is his profile but its doesn't make him a champion chaser.

I seem to recall Edredon Bleu had only won 2 of his 9 most recent chase starts before winning a champion, or was it 2 races in 2 seasons?. Big Zeb fell so many times he couldn't be too high on the list either. Indeed, he went hurdling to rebuild his confidence, which come to think of it, is what Newmill did. He'd probably be close to 2 wins from 7 over fences too, and he wouldn't have been taking in races like the Arkle or King George either, concentrating instead on much softer assignments

A big part of assessing this race has to be taking a view on the strength of the opposition. Where exactly is it?

Sprinter Sacre is the only one you'd be genuinely scared of. The only other horse that's ever beaten Champagne Fever over fences who looks like he could line up is Al Ferof, and that was by a narrowest margins in the King George. Champagne Fever has been in against much better opponents than anything but Sprinter Sacre.

There will always be exceptions but there should have been more than we have seen so far to be of interest .
 
His Festival record is 1/1/2

His profile suggests he'll be a better hurdler than a chaser

He jumps like a stag

He's 7/1 in a renewal featuring a couple of superstars who have had no sort of season and not much else in essence

I don't see what's not to like

He jumps well granted but Sprinter Sacre really does jump like a stag ..They go to a fence together and Sprinter will take off a half length before him and come out 1 1/2 lengths ahead of him. You may think that's an exaggeration but he capable of doing just that. And we saw what happens when he's headed so many times

I agree Warbler puts up a good case until you remove the hurdling form. This is the QMCC not a poor Arkle and certainly not a 2 1/2 or 3 mile race where hoses will happily give you an easy lead. I don't necessarily mean over the entire 2 miles but at some point in this race it becomes the fastest run 2 mile chase in racing and the likes of Sprinter using his mid-race pace would eat Champagne Fever for breakfast even if he turned up a stone below his best.

PN's has a great understanding of how to run a race to his horses advantage> Not for one minute will Dodging Bullets be held up until the last to get into a fight up the hill with the likes of CF which would likely hand the initiative to the grey.

If he's going well enough he'll do what he did at Ascot and make his move much earlier. If either one of the top 3 make a move then they all will if possible and it will be race over for Champagne Fever.

It's one thing fending off middle of the road horses fending animals like these is a whole different story.

WMis depending on things like Sire De Grugy and Sprinter Sacre under performing and even after yesterdays poor run by SDG there's no guarantee that will happen in fact I am all but certain Sprinter Sacre will improve and be back at something like his best now he's being trained like a normal horse instead of NJH being taking the slow boat to China to get him fit enough to run and little more.

It's said they don't come back?.....Those words will look very silly on the 11th of March
 
Since Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop, and Well Chief departed the scene this race has pretty much been one horse romps with a few poor renewals thrown in too. This year is shaping like a potential cracker though. It's certainly the most intriguing.

I'm another who wouldn't rule Champagne Fever out. He needs Sprinter Sacre and Sire de Grugy to run below there very best which they may well do. Dodging Bullets and Mr Mole would need him to run below his very best too, which is also possible of course.

If they were all fit and well with no doubts then Sprinter Sacre is the obvious one, and logic tells me I need him in my pocket, but splitting stakes with Champagne Fever feels like a reasonable play. Of those that attract ew the two that stand out are Hidden Cyclone and Special Tiara.

I'd be interested what the clock watchers make of Special Tiara's romp at Kempton over Christmas, which to my eye looked a massive step up on previous form. Did anyone rate the race.
 
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The only way I can see him being that kind of price is for 15 mins on a £10 maximum stake for a promotional item.

I expect Nicky to offer some upbeat reports between now and then (it's not as if he really wants Champagne Fever or Al Ferof turning up) so he's bound to try playing a few mind games if he thinks he can scare off just one potentially threat who could be re-routed. As soon as Geraghty tells everyone about the best piece of final work he's ever done etc, the punters will storm into him. I'd expect to see him much nearer to 11/8 on the day than I would 8/1. I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see him nudging even money, although those who think he's the most likely winner but don't fancy the price are likely to look for the e/w value instead which is bound to control his returned SP I'd have thought. My guess is 6/4 to evens. Sire de Grugy is the horse I expect to see 8/1+

Without being picky I can't al ferof in this and I would be amazed if he is concerned about cf if ss is "back to his best"

As an aside cf may look good jumping at his fences but he's hardly free of errors. One would put him out of a race like this of coursecourse

i don't know how anyone can be certain about ss recovery. It's about price of course but surely this is one very fragile horse where you sense that anything could go wrong.
 
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It's said they don't come back?.....Those words will look very silly on the 11th of March

like they did yesterday with SDG?..then SS..then Big Bucks...then well chief..then Denman

you will get a top one "come back" to its very best one day..then you can crow:)..problem is there are many that do not come back..and by that i mean the same as before they went

yes its probably a silly old saying...it should be..they rarely come back..but at the moment can you name one top horse that came back to its best in the last 10 years...and i mean top horse..a decent Grade 1 hoss.
 
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I'd be interested what the clock watchers make of Special Tiara's romp at Kempton over Christmas, which to my eye looked a massive step up on previous form. Did anyone rate the race.

it was the fastest race per furlong on the card..and was 4 seconds quicker than Vibrato Valtat..carried 8 less than VV..so you could rate ST at about 170+ on that run.

Since then Balder Success..2nd has romped in...and third intention beaten 20+ has beaten Josses Hill

Special Tiara is pretty smart Maruco i would say
 
Thing is EC sprinter sacre doesn't have to be at his best to win with his head in his chest.

on paper no..obviously if he does come back..he will win easily..what % chance is there he will be at his very best?

if not at best..then will he be 90%?..if it is 90% then if he is a 190 horse as his rating suggests..then 90% of that is 171...is that a head in chest win?

Looking at such as Well Chief..he came back and won..but was a stone below his best..so if WC is a decent example of a horse coming back then SS might be a 176 on the day..again is that head in chest?..could be.

guess guess guess really isn't it?..intriguing race now though

Mr Mole's performance yesterday was top stuff..he gave them a 10 length start..and won by 13 easing up..if you can class that as a 23+ length win..giving 2lb to a 150 horse..thats a 175 there..and he seems to be improving..he is some opponent now...just on his own..throw in the others and this is a wide open race.

Swap MM yesterday for SS and this forum would have been lauding it as a top notch win
 
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Without being picky I can't al ferof in this and I would be amazed if he is concerned about cf if ss is "back to his best"

As an aside cf may look good jumping at his fences but he's hardly free of errors. One would put him out of a race like this of coursecourse

i don't know how anyone can be certain about ss recovery. It's about price of course but surely this is one very fragile horse where you sense that anything could go wrong.

The chances are he won't be back to his best, so the question will be how far from that best is he. Nicky would rather have other horses out the way if only to reduce traffic and the number of potential things that could go wrong. As ridiculous as it might seem, Hinterland was travelling as well as anything last season and might very well have given Sire de Grugy something to think about, he pretty well got brought down by Special Tiara though
 
There will always be exceptions but there should have been more than we have seen so far to be of interest .

You normally want a champion chaser to be be about 50% S/R, and anything below 33% is a negative, however, things are rarely that straight forward

If you're profiling horses, there are various ways of doing it (not exactly my own theory, but worth going over)

You can look through a horses performance profile for patterns based on correlating a performance with the variables that can impact on a performance with the objective to taking view of cause and effect. Statistically you can do this using something called a coefficient of determination. Most people don't quite go this far though. A lot of the patterns you spot by simply studying profiles. I've already offered the seasonal pattern in Champagne Fever as an example of a performance key. Make of it what you will.

There is a lot of statistical rubbish spoken about horses being 80% fit (or 20% unfit if you look at it the other way round). If a horse hits 20% more fences, has lost 20% of its acceleration, has had it's stamina reduced by 20% etc what do you think the cumulative effects of all this will be? It'll lose. On the apex of most sports, the gap between the top competitors is much narrower than the "20%" that commentators use as a lazy default, and things tend to be settled on finer margins than this. For that reason it's always useful to know what conditions have been prominent when a horse has achieved his optimal performance. When he's likely to face those again you consider backing him, if he isn't, then clearly he's better off swerved.

For simplicity though it might be easier to reverse engineer this process and performance profile the variables in the race. In this case we know what some of them are, and can take an informed view about the others

Cheltenham is a left handed, undulating track, the race distance is 2 miles (you could try and build in additional factors like going, field size, or pace)

It's really runs that the horse has put up under these conditions that you should be giving prominence too. In this case the only time Champagne Fever has met them over fences was last years Arkle, where were it not for a nose, he'd have won. If you're prepared to stretch it out to hurdles and NHF you might bring his other runs into play.

At the end of the day, 3 miles right handed on a flat course at kempton won't have much bearing on 2 miles round Cheltenham. It's like invoking a England's test record against Sri Lanka, as evidence as to why they'll win a T20. Sure some of the disciplines are the same, and there is some transfer, but we are talking about radically different disciplines and applications there of.

As things stand, the best piece of form that Champagne Fever has by way of pointer to his most likely performance, should be the Arkle.

On the clock at least, it would have been good enough to win last years Champion Chase, but that's too simplistic to use quite so crudely. I just happen to think last years Arkle was actually quite good, and that it was the 2 mile Champion Chase that was weak (proximity of Somersby and Module?).

The finishing order is - Sprinter Sacre, Champagne Fever, Special Tiara
 
Denman ??????

Denman came back and was awarded a 182 twice the same rating as he got when winning his 1st Gold Cup

Although beaten by Kauto Star he upheld his end when finished further in front of Neptune Colonges 74 in that Gold Cup than he had when Neptune Collonges was rated 72....an improvement or a bad run by Neptune or maybe the brilliant Kauto Star ran underpar 1st time and had an off day.......no effin way was Neptune Collonges on a level par with Kauto never ever ever and that is an absolute no brainer


The Handicapper in his wisdom dropped Denman to 174 and denman replied by putting up another 182 performance.

If you think he never came back his best go tell the Handicapper he was an idiot.

Sure he went downhill after that but so what? Every horse ets to a stage when enough is enough.

Even Kauto Star was written of by most people but bounced back and won a Betfair Chase and a king George.


You took a back seat on your initial statement adding "Top One" but I decided to play along and humour you anyway.

I have said it before many many horses come back to their best after injury and you don't have to be a top dog to make that saying one of the silliest ever spoken

It is a quote that came about because famous of horses like Arkle and others hitting the headlines......when a good one gets injured and doesn't make it back it BIG news.

Aldaniti I put forward before was a top class chaser but the last time I mentioned him you ignored it.

You pick one
 
can you name one or maybe two from the last 10 years?...not one from 1981..then again the fact you have gone back 34 years actually proves my point about rarely come back as correct

i'm not really bothered if the saying is silly..i'm sure it is when saying never..but i haven't said never in any of my posts

i read many silly statements on this forum..and they go unchallenged..you really keeping this one going..but giving no real examples

and if you are struggling for examples..then my saying about rarely is true isn't it?

i'm really not seeing the issue here..i said rarely..have you got that bit sorted?:)..and your post above shows i am right..as i have named a number that didn't

this is getting really boring now..please stop putting words in my mouth about never coming back
 
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