Road to the 2013 Gold Cup

I agree that Imperial Commander is overpriced . His form with Denman and Kauto is a lot more solid than that of Long Run as in 2010-11 Denman was in decline and Kauto wasn't right.
 
Denman was never in decline at any stage !

Prior to his debilitating heart problem he was unbeaten over fences.

When he returned to the track ,thereafter, he was never the same horse commencing with being demolished 25 lengths by Madison Du Berlais before starting at 7/1 for the Gold Cup when defending Champion !

Everyone is quite aware of that....just as Flyingbolt was never the same horse when he returned after brucellosis all those years ago.

Please don't insult Denman again.
 
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ArkleSupreme said:
Denman was never in decline at any stage !

Prior to his debilitating heart problem he was unbeaten over fences.

When he returned to the track ,thereafter, he was never the same horse commencing with being demolished 25 lengths by Madison Du Berlais before starting at 7/1 for the Gold Cup when defending Champion !

Everyone is quite aware of that....just as Flyingbolt was never the same horse when he returned after brucellosis all those years ago.

Please don't insult Denman again.
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I am afraid that despite finishing 2nd to Long Run in the GC in 2011 Denman was plainly in decline which is why he was retired . The Denman that won his first two Hennessys would have seen off Diamond Harry and Burton Port IMO in the 2010 version I have no doubt .

It is nonsensical to suggest that is " insulting Denman " . My point is that I think it very likely that if Denman had been in the form he was when he was second to Imperial Commander he would have beaten Long Run .
 
The unbeaten Denman of 2007/2008 would have beaten Kauto Star in 2009 and Imperial Commander in 2010 and...yes maybe you are right...he would have beaten Long Run in 2011 too...giving him 4 Gold Cups !

Unfortunately,we can never know as he most certainly was never the same horse when he returned to the track after his debilitating heart problem...pure and simple...and he won the 2009 Hennessy Gold Cup on courage alone,and not in the same devestating way he had won the 2007 race !
 
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ArkleSupreme said:
The Denman of 2007/2008 would have beaten Kauto Star in 2009 and Imperial Commander in 2010 and...yes maybe you are right...he would have beaten Long Run in 2011 too...giving him 4 Gold Cups !

Unfortunately,we can never know as he most certainly was never the same horse when he returned to the track after his debilitating heart problem...pure and simple...and he won the 2009 Hennessy Gold Cup on courage alone,and not in the same devestating way he had won the 2007 race !
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Erm - he was carrying loads more weight and had to give tons to What a Friend and still beat him . I do not agree that he was not the same horse at all . That race led to his 182 rating !
 
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Ask Paul Nicholls,Harry Findlay and Paul Barber about Denman....they will all put you right !

Maybe you can understand the clue I have already given you.

He returned to defend his Gold Cup title starting at 7/1 and Nicholls was "delighted" that he finished second considering what he had been through since his previous Gold Cup win.

"That" says it all !
 
Denman was better at cheltenham
Kauto at Kempton


on pure figures Kauto slightly better for me

if I was given the chance to own one of them , I would have picked Kauto Star
 
We just have to beg to differ, Sunybay...such a pity Denman never had the chance to fulfill his true ability, and at one stage there was talk of him doing a Golden Miller and winning the Gold Cup and Grand National in the same year...never such talk about Kauto Star I might add !

OK OTB !
 
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ArkleSupreme said:
We just have to beg to differ, Sunybay...such a pity Denman never had the chance to fulfill his true ability, and at one stage there was talk of him doing a Golden Miller and winning the Gold Cup and Grand National in the same year...never such talk about Kauto Star I might add !

OK OTB !
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After his first Hennessy Denman was on 176 - after his second he was on 182 . I find it difficult to understand any suggestion he was not the same horse -unless one is referring to his 6lb improvement !
 
ArkleSupreme said:
We just have to beg to differ, Sunybay...such a pity Denman never had the chance to fulfill his true ability, and at one stage there was talk of him doing a Golden Miller and winning the Gold Cup and Grand National in the same year...never such talk about Kauto Star I might add !

OK OTB !
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to be fair if you are going to ignore ratings and suggest that Denman was the better horse of the two..then i'll say Best Mate was better than Denman as he won 3 Gold Cups

that trumps you good style i reckon ;)
 
Denman would have been higher than 182 had he not had his problems AFTER winning the 2008 Gold Cup !

I suggest you watch both Hennessy Gold Cup races again and see Sam Thomas in cruise control as opposed to Ruby Walsh's urgings on the obviously inferior version of 2009.

EC1 ...Best Mate was a tremendous triple Gold Cup winner too..no question..and I backed him each time he won it....however,at their very best Denman was the superior horse and Best Mate had no Kauto Star to contend with .
 
ArkleSupreme said:
Denman would have been higher than 182 had he not had his problems AFTER winning the 2008 Gold Cup !

I suggest you watch both Hennessy Gold Cup races again and see Sam Thomas in cruise control as opposed to Ruby Walsh's urgings on the obviously inferior version of 2009.

EC1 ...Best Mate was a tremendous triple Gold Cup winner too..no question..and I backed him each time he won it....however,at their very best Denman was the superior horse and Best Mate had no Kauto Star to contend with .
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you are now quoting ratings..which you ignore re KS & Denman

on ratings KS is superior to Denman...on achievements only ..Best Mate is superior to Denman..he must be..he won 3 GC's
 
ArkleSupreme said:
I suggest you watch both Hennessy Gold Cup races again and see Sam Thomas in cruise control as opposed to Ruby Walsh's urgings on the obviously inferior version of 2009.
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He wasn't inferior he was conceding weight to better animals than two years before.

Denman was back to his best in 2009/10 but he had to be fresh. I believe his lamentable run when unseating behind Tricky Trickster cost him the Gold Cup that season.
 
Sorry EC1 but the Ratings are not always correct as Timeform seem to have double standards...they ignored Flyingbolt's disappointing results when he returned to the racecourse obviously not the same horse in 1968,and the same applies to Denman here.

He was never the same horse after his debilitating heart problems...he was unbeaten over fences beforehand and would have continued in the same manner had this not occured....no way on earth would Madison Du Berlais been destroying him by 25 lengths,as he did at Kempton, and no way on earth would Kauto Star make a 20 lengths turn around from the result of the 2008 Gold Cup !

It really is not rocket science !

Anyway,as someone said earlier...this debate has been done to death now...each to their own view !
 
ArkleSupreme said:
Sorry EC1 but the Ratings are not always correct as Timeform seem to have double standards...they ignored Flyingbolt's disappointing results when he returned to the racecourse obviously not the same horse in 1968,and the same applies to Denman here.

He was never the same horse after his debilitating heart problems...he was unbeaten over fences beforehand and would have continued in the same manner had this not occured....no way on earth would Madison Du Berlais been destroying him by 25 lengths,as he did at Kempton, and no way on earth would Kauto Star make a 20 lengths turn around from the result of the 2008 Gold Cup !

It really is not rocket science !

Anyway,as someone said earlier...this debate has been done to death now...each to their own view !
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Denman was very beatable at kempton..he hated the track.

i used to like rocket science..but got bored with it over time
 
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Denman was unbeatable at any track over fences prior to his debilitating heart problem.

Those are the facts of the matter.

What is rocket science anyway ?
 
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Two of these prominent for the GC so will put this here

329D John Durkan Memorial Punchestown S'chase
(Grade 1) €52,000.00 ( 2m 4f - 5yo+ )[MAX 22]
FIRST FORFEIT: 04-DEC-12
SUPPLEMENTARY ENTRY: 04-DEC-12
NHFrm
55235 1 Blackstairmountain(148)
(WPMullins) - . ............. 11,10
f-13f 2 Bog Warrior(150) (AJMartin) - . ......... 11,10
11p21 3 Cristal Bonus (FR)(152) (PNicholls
(in GB)) - . ................... 11,10
-2342 4 First Lieutenant(160) (MFMorris) - . .. 11,10
11111 5 Flemenstar(168) (PCasey) - . ............. 11,10
12p46 6 Follow The Plan(157) (OMcKiernan)
- . ................................. 11,10
11-31 7 Hidden Cyclone(145) (JJHanlon) - . .. 11,10
pp522 8 Magnanimity(140) (DTHughes) - . ..... 11,10
-f5u5 9 Organisedconfusion(145)
(ALTMoore) - . ............. 11,10
113-3 10 Quito De La Roque (FR)(159)
(CAMurphy) - . ............. 11,10
52044 11 Realt Dubh(159) (NMeade) - . ............ 11,10
2-154 12 Rubi Light (FR)(161) (RAHennessy)
- . ................................. 11,10
1-111 13 Sir Des Champs (FR)(162)
(WPMullins) - . ............. 11,10
41525 14 Tranquil Sea(156) (EJO'Grady) - . ..... 11,10
p0311 15 Blazing Tempo(153) (WPMullins) - . .. 11,03
Click to expand...
 
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