Royal Ascot

EC1 said:
Could you post up one performance by BG that in your opinion was better than Frankel's.
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I'd suggest Timeform would rate him higher on several counts if they calculated his form the way they are with Frankel but I really don't want to be dissing Frankel. I'm just trying to get at the truth. I want another superhero but not a false god. I'm frustrated that Hawk Wing never got to prove he was on a par with BG and maybe even better.

Nevertheless:
We know all about his Guineas win from Mill Reef and My Swallow.

He then struggled to win the SJP in ground that Timeform described as barely raceable.

On 'normal' soft ground (he was thought best on good or better, remember) in the Sussex Stakes he destroyed a top class field.

He beat "the best 4yo miler in Europe" Faraway Son (notionally 126, say?) by five lengths (over 11lbs). He beat Joshua, who had won the Challenge Stakes by five lengths, by 7.5 lengths. He beat the Jersey Stakes (notionally about 117 if the modern race is anything to go by) winner Ashleigh by more than ten lengths (23lbs+). The other runner was the Irish 2000 Guineas winner Kings Company, beaten over 16 lengths.

In the Goodwood Mile, "Gold Rod, a contemprary of Faraway Son and almost his equal (125?), had to suffer even greater indignity at the hands of Brigadier Gerard", ultimately beaten ten lengths.

BG then won the QE II at Ascot, also by a wide margin.

In discussing his prospects of staying beyond a mile, they opined that he had even led throughout in three top class mile races and at the end still "appeared twice as strong as an ox".

Remember: back in the day, Timeform weren't given to hyperbole.

BG's best (on relative ratings) performances in his 4yo season:

Westbury Stks [now the Brigadier Gerard Stakes]: gave Ballyhot (Timeform 121) and Pembroke Castle (120), 14lbs and 10lbs respectively, beating them ½ length & 2 lengths.*

Prince Of Wales: “in the space of two furlongs, Brigadier Gerard put five lengths between himself and Steel Pulse” (125 – won the Irish Derby eleven days later). Pembroke Castle was beaten 6½ lengths in receipt of 4lbs; Prominent (won the John Smith’s Magnet Cup next time under top weight) was beaten over 12 lengths in fourth.**

QEII: gave Sparkler (129) 7lb and beat him 6 lengths after missing the break and losing three or four lengths, Redundant (120) was 5 lengths behind Sparkler at the line. “The winner’s time was a full second inside the track record that had stood for fifteen years.”
 
On The Bridle said:
Very similar profile - would you fancy Kissed if she was running tomorrow?
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She broke down in France and the cash suggested she was seriously well fancied. So yes you would. Aararas ran almost an identical race behind Kissed and Princess Highway. How strong are you stake wise?


.
 
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SlimChance said:
She broke down in France and the cash suggested she was seriously well fancied. So yes you would. Aararas ran almost an identical race behind Kissed and Princess Highway. How strong are you stake wise?


.
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Two decent EW bets at 7/1. May look at other markets when they form. Welds two runners today wouldn't be a plus but I think she is improving at a serious rate and the race lacks depth.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I'd suggest Timeform would rate him higher on several counts if they calculated his form the way they are with Frankel but I really don't want to be dissing Frankel. I'm just trying to get at the truth. I want another superhero but not a false god. I'm frustrated that Hawk Wing never got to prove he was on a par with BG and maybe even better.

Nevertheless:
We know all about his Guineas win from Mill Reef and My Swallow.

He then struggled to win the SJP in ground that Timeform described as barely raceable.

On 'normal' soft ground (he was thought best on good or better, remember) in the Sussex Stakes he destroyed a top class field.

He beat "the best 4yo miler in Europe" Faraway Son (notionally 126, say?) by five lengths (over 11lbs). He beat Joshua, who had won the Challenge Stakes by five lengths, by 7.5 lengths. He beat the Jersey Stakes (notionally about 117 if the modern race is anything to go by) winner Ashleigh by more than ten lengths (23lbs+). The other runner was the Irish 2000 Guineas winner Kings Company, beaten over 16 lengths.

In the Goodwood Mile, "Gold Rod, a contemprary of Faraway Son and almost his equal (125?), had to suffer even greater indignity at the hands of Brigadier Gerard", ultimately beaten ten lengths.

BG then won the QE II at Ascot, also by a wide margin.

In discussing his prospects of staying beyond a mile, they opined that he had even led throughout in three top class mile races and at the end still "appeared twice as strong as an ox".

Remember: back in the day, Timeform weren't given to hyperbole.

BG's best (on relative ratings) performances in his 4yo season:

Westbury Stks [now the Brigadier Gerard Stakes]: gave Ballyhot (Timeform 121) and Pembroke Castle (120), 14lbs and 10lbs respectively, beating them ½ length & 2 lengths.*

Prince Of Wales: “in the space of two furlongs, Brigadier Gerard put five lengths between himself and Steel Pulse” (125 – won the Irish Derby eleven days later). Pembroke Castle was beaten 6½ lengths in receipt of 4lbs; Prominent (won the John Smith’s Magnet Cup next time under top weight) was beaten over 12 lengths in fourth.**

QEII: gave Sparkler (129) 7lb and beat him 6 lengths after missing the break and losing three or four lengths, Redundant (120) was 5 lengths behind Sparkler at the line. “The winner’s time was a full second inside the track record that had stood for fifteen years.”
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impressive stuff

i read the book about him years ago before i got tangled up in all this form rating malarkey:)..good read as well..
 
Queally was **** on Chaichamaidee - got after her much too soon she has a devastating short run and he went much too early after her falling out of the stalls .

Thank God he is now a passenger on Frankel . The more magnificent performnances Frankel puts in Queally;s ride in the St James's Palace looks worse and worse .
 
I posted here before that I thought the 3 yo 1 mile handicap run at Dundalk on 11th of April was form to follow off a cliff. I did and fell off the cliff when Ishvana stuffed Piri Wango next time up. I erased it from my memory and put Ishvana's Guineas run down as a fluke. Today she hacks up in a group race and the second to her in the Dundalk race won with something to spare next time up(Slade Power). Suehail upheld the form in Killarney (still having nightmares about the photo finish) whilst Piri Wango tried to make all in that Ishvana race and got swamped late. Murtagh gets jocked off for Dettori and while PW got 4lbs retrospectively he's probably well in off 97. 20/1 generally available for 5 places and being by Choisir probably wont mind the forecast rain.... Fair bet
 
Desert Orchid said:
The only decent horse Frankel has beaten is Excelebration and he burst himself trying to go with the beast yesterday.
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Sorry but that is way off the mark

Frankel's form is rock rock solid .

His victims include Nathaniel , Canford Cliffs, Immortal Verse , Dream Ahead etc as well as Excelebration. At the last count - between them his victims have won 28 Group 1 races
 
Ardross said:
Sorry but that is way off the mark

Frankel's form is rock rock solid .

His victims include Nathaniel , Canford Cliffs, Immortal Verse , Dream Ahead etc as well as Excelebration. At the last count - between them his victims have won 28 Group 1 races
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How many Group 1 races has Tom Queally won?
 
Ardross said:
Sorry but that is way off the mark

Frankel's form is rock rock solid .

His victims include Nathaniel , Canford Cliffs, Immortal Verse , Dream Ahead etc as well as Excelebration. At the last count - between them his victims have won 28 Group 1 races
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You should know better than to take remarks out of context, Ardross. My remark about the only decent horse he beat related specifically to Tuesday.

Nevertheless, you could drive a bendy-bus sideways through your list.

Nathaniel was a 2yo making its debut.
Canford Cliffs wasn't at his very best the day Frankel beat him.
Immortal Verse's Coronation is one peak in an otherwise ordinary form wave.
Dream Ahead's defeats by Frankel were over 7f in soft as a 2yo and over a stiff mile in the SJP, and Dream Ahead went on to peak as a sprinter.
 
I've taken the 8/1 Gale Force Ten in the opening Group 2. He was quite impressive in his maiden in the Curragh beating a well regarded Jom Bolger colt and a few in behind that were fancied too. It looked a very good maiden. With the normal amount of improvement it's not hard to see him going close.
 
Desert Orchid said:
You should know better than to take remarks out of context, Ardross. My remark about the only decent horse he beat related specifically to Tuesday.

Nevertheless, you could drive a bendy-bus sideways through your list.

Nathaniel was a 2yo making its debut.
Canford Cliffs wasn't at his very best the day Frankel beat him.
Immortal Verse's Coronation is one peak in an otherwise ordinary form wave.
Dream Ahead's defeats by Frankel were over 7f in soft as a 2yo and over a stiff mile in the SJP, and Dream Ahead went on to peak as a sprinter.
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Immortal Verse's form was hardly ordinary - she followed up the Coronation by beating older horses in Goldikova, Dick Turpin among others in the Jacques Le Marois at Deauville. Canford Cliffs not being at his best at Goodwood is a matter of opinion.
 
J O Tobin said:
Immortal Verse's form was hardly ordinary - she followed up the Coronation by beating older horses in Goldikova, Dick Turpin among others in the Jacques Le Marois at Deauville. Canford Cliffs not being at his best at Goodwood is a matter of opinion.
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Aye, an 'opinion' that prevented him ever setting foot on a racecourse again.:lol:
 
SlimChance said:
I've taken the 8/1 Gale Force Ten in the opening Group 2. He was quite impressive in his maiden in the Curragh beating a well regarded Jom Bolger colt and a few in behind that were fancied too. It looked a very good maiden. With the normal amount of improvement it's not hard to see him going close.
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Agree with all of that. The Bolger colt ran very well in the Coventry as well.
 
SlimChance said:
I've taken the 8/1 Gale Force Ten in the opening Group 2. He was quite impressive in his maiden in the Curragh beating a well regarded Jom Bolger colt and a few in behind that were fancied too. It looked a very good maiden. With the normal amount of improvement it's not hard to see him going close.
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Also, on a line through the Bolger horse, there is very little between this one and the favourite, yet the O'Brien horse is double the price. I know which trainer I would be backing the eke out improvement from their last race to Royal Ascot (and it has run once less).

A cracking bet.
 
Hardest day of the week for me and less betting opportunities than any others.

I think Cavaleiro is big at 25s in the Hampton Court, some hype horses begging to be taken on from big yards and he will handle the ground and didn't run bad in the Derby trial and I'll forgive any horse a bad run in the Derby given he's running against handicappers in a Group 3.

I like quite a few in the Britannia; Piri Wango's form looks better after the Jersey, Kahrumann brings solid form to the party, Van Ellis and Graphic look overpriced too.

Fennell Bay can improve again over 1m4f and will definitely go on the ground, 16s is too bit. Typical MJ improving handicapper who he does well with at these big meetings. Can't understand Handsome Man's price in relation to his stablemate either, 16/1 again is very generous.
 
Isn't Jubilee Brig a massive price at 33s in the first too given his form with Ceiling Kitty and Bungle Inthejungle? Time at Kempton was awesome too, quicker than the sprint handicap for older horses on the same card.
 
2011 Sussex Stakes sans Frankel equals Kauto Star's 2007 Gold Cup. CC tanks along on a steady pace and pounces late on.

2011 Sussex Stakes with Frankel equals the 2008 Gold Cup. Good, even great horses, dismantled by destroyer of dreams.
 
EC1 said:
did Frankel actually "burst" CC as well?..another who tried to go with him like E
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I fear the Sussex will involve a load of horses entered for the place prize money standing so far off him that he gets bored and lies down for a nap at the 4f pole.
 
Gabrial the Great in the last is well handicapped and a stonking price. I'd also be keen on Born to Surprise if I knew he would go on the ground. On his home work with SD he is seriously well handicapped.
 
I'm already on both Piri Wango and Fennell Bay, Gamla. That makes two good judges, and then myself, on the former. I'll probably also back Jubilee Brig.

Your mention of Ceiling Kitty prompts me to relate how expensive holidays can be. I backed this one LTO and noted down ' must back at Ascot. Serious'. With the benefit of some reasonable results at the big end of season jumps meetings and Martin's Pointers thread my betting kitty (no pun) is in very good health. Unfortunately being on holiday within Italy, and not noticing in time to get hold of my son to put a bet on for me I missed what probably would have been my best result of the year.
 
Kailani is worth a shout in the Ribblesdale. She might just be average but the ground and the track may have been against her in the Oaks. All this rain will help her big time.
 
From the RP site:

Clerk of the course Chris Stickels has just updated the GoingStick readings.
It's 8.4 on the stands' side, 8.4 in the centre and 8.6 on the far side. It's softer on the round course at 7.2. By James Burn, live from Ascot (39 mins ago)
 
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