thats the sadness
its like venezuela, the poor people voting Chavez and Maduro and thats the main reason they are going to be poorer in coming years.
by the way
people younger than 25yo should not be allowed to vote
Scottish Independence.....
- Thread starter Grasshopper
- Start date
thats the sadness
its like venezuela, the poor people voting Chavez and Maduro and thats the main reason they are going to be poorer in coming years.
by the way
people younger than 25yo should not be allowed to vote
Grasshopper
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If David Cameron is true to his word (settle-down, Warbler), it seems we are heading in the direction of federalism in the UK, and can expect properly-devolved Parliaments to be established in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Insofar as the latter goes; does anyone envision a future scenario where the Northern Irish are offered a referendum of their own - where they are offered the chance to remain a part of the UK, become independent, or join the Republic?
And if such a thing were to come to pass, would it place the peace-process in any jeopardy (got ugly enough in parts here).
Insofar as the latter goes; does anyone envision a future scenario where the Northern Irish are offered a referendum of their own - where they are offered the chance to remain a part of the UK, become independent, or join the Republic?
And if such a thing were to come to pass, would it place the peace-process in any jeopardy (got ugly enough in parts here).
walsworth
Journeyman
Can we now have a referendum for independence for England?
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EC1
On a break
simmo
Senior Jockey
Please do. Don't let Orangemen and idiots vote though, or else you'll be fucked.
According to wikipedia Disraeli was baptised an Anglican at age 12, so his example is not relevant.
This is a sensible looking take on the constitutional issue:
In other words some rearranging of affairs would be needed to accommodate a Catholic prime minister but you'd imagine it would be done without too much fuss.
However a Catholic heir to the throne would be a different matter:
Anyway, leaving all that aside, for what it's worth I think Scotland probably made the right decision.
Every election in Northern Ireland, whether to elect a rat catcher or the government in Westminster, turns into a virtual plebiscite on the constitutional issue anyway.
Had the Yes side carried the day it could have had big implications for Northern Ireland. The unionist camp would have seen what very many of them regard as their blood brothers heading for the exit door while they are very anxious to remain. Most of them will be feeling relieved by the result.
Flagship uberalles
Journeyman
At the moment, such a referendum isn't likely as it would definitely end in a "No" vote - polls taken last year showed a significant level of support for remaining part of the UK. A lot of that was probably due to Ireland having a complete disaster of an economy.
That said, if there was a successful campaign run by the nationalist side, this would definitely end up being a close run thing. However, I did agree with the DUP MLA on the radio this morning who said that a referendum really wouldn't help things over here - if it got ugly in Scotland imagine how bad it would get in NI?
Independence for NI isn't really an option, the economics and imbalance between private and public sector jobs would make it a bit of a non starter at present.
Flagship uberalles
Journeyman
It's had massive implications anyway. For example, if Scotland are getting devolved taxes and welfare, then surely NI and Wales will follow suit? This then brings into question the stance taken by Sinn Fein in refusing to agree to austerity reforms - if welfare is going to be devolved, then looks like they could claim to be right all along?
tiggers1972
Senior Jockey
An all too familiar story, Scotland fail to make it out of the group!
:lol:
:lol:
Grasshopper
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Desert Orchid
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:lol:
The federalism way and more money and autonomy will not stop independentist continue asking for more, in Spain , Cataluña has much more than scotland is going to have and they keep asking for more and blaming the rest of Spain for their problems,
Local politicians will be even more corrupt and will want autonomy judges in their courts....
They will ask for schools competences to continúe adoctrinating the young people and is no stop story....
What should do people is travelling more and be less provinciants.
Local politicians will be even more corrupt and will want autonomy judges in their courts....
They will ask for schools competences to continúe adoctrinating the young people and is no stop story....
What should do people is travelling more and be less provinciants.
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frontrunner
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Sums it up pretty well.
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Cataluna's case is slightly different in so much as they're the strong region of Spain wanting to shed the rest of what they see as failed Spain. It would be akin to London and the south east wanting to have independence. Scotland isn't the strong region of the UK by a long way (despite what Alex Salmond thinks).
The reality however is that the Independence movement will see this as another nudge towards that end game and will of course try again at some point in the future. It's certainly not unheard of in the history of revolutions for it to require 3 or 4 goes before you succeed
When Alex Salmond can achieve 45% and lose, yet David Cameron has a mandate from 36% of the population to win, it's difficult to argue that 'Yes' have really been defeated. It reminds me a little bit of when Thatcher 'won' the first round of the leadership contest in 1990, and everyone realised she'd lost
I suspect a myth might envelop things that paints Gordon Brown as the only thing that stood between the union and independence. I call it a myth as I suspect 'No' would have won anyway, but will happily conceed that had Brown decided he fancied the job of becoming Scotlands first Prime Minister and aggressively called for a Yes vote we could have seen a different outcome
'Yes' undoubtedly had a lot of things ranged against them. The media, the Westminster machine, a smaller campaign budget, big business/ supermarket(s)/ finance institutions, the three main political parties, the UK cabinet secretary and rest of the civil service, and yet, and quite staggering really, it managed to get 45% of the vote
It's worth reflecting how fragile things were. It is possible that one man who was vilified by calamity Cameron etc has held it together. If it is? then this is just a transient roosting post. A bus stop on the way independence. If Scotland governs under a revised federal devo max position for 15 years without encountering any significant crises (indeed, you could argue that manufacturing, managing, and absorbing a stress crisis is to their advantage) then the nationalists will be even more emboldened. Think of it as a training and confidence building exercise progressing to full independence. If this period also coincides with the continued shift to the right which we've seen across Europe and the UK, then the conditions will be even more fertile.
With the West Lothian issue resolved in England's favour it's difficult to see how a Scottish politician can come to the fore to occupy the status and gravitas that Gordon Brown did. He himself of course will be older and less influential by then
You have a juxtaposition of things really which you'd summarise as more conservative governance south of the border coinciding with nationalised socialism north of the border. Provided this temporary federal accommodation hasn't seen Scotland meltdown, then the partings of the ways will become inevitable.
One of the more interesting things to observe over the next few years might be how decisions relating to long term infrastructure are made. HS2 is one example, but there will be others concerning transport or defence establishments
The other major player that is going to have to adjust is of course the Labour party. Contrary to what people might think, today's labour party is compratively quite young and by no means has a copyright on socialism. The SNP has always had a socialist agenda too but for such time as they shared that philosophy the SNP were seen as an imitation. Why vote for that, when you could vote for a more empowering version. The SNP remained static however. It was Labour who shifted to the right and moved through the centre ground to occupy a position closer to that of the American Democrats. This might suit their aspirations in the wider UK, but it means abandoning their traditional support base in Scotland. Naturally enough the socialist vote of Scotland witnessed this shift and accepted for so long until it became so unpaltable they could no longer support it. Instead of blindly voting for the changed party, they reassessed the field and started voting for the same philosophy represented through the SNP. It wasn't so much a case of people abandoning labour, as much as it was labour abandoning people. If the SNP can somehow dilute the nationalist element a bit, or frame it through the prism of a rejection of english neo conservatism, there's a clear populist chord they can tug at which makes the SNP (national socialists in everything but name) the natural choice of government. The Scottish labour party will now need to throw off the chains of middle class english new labour in order to be relevant, otherwise they'll simply fade away.
This creates the grounds for the SNP to win another majority at an unspecified point in the future under Nicola Stugeon (actually she said a few things last night at 05.30 in the morning that made me deeply suspicious as to whether or not she's anointed). She seemed to be staking out a position without Salmond's blessing. It was as if she was forming a breakaway and making her decisions.
Anyway, the next time they test this vote to get an affirmitive answer, 20 years or so Scotland will be independent. Wales won't however, and neither will any of the English regions
Cameron's a liar - surely not?
Salmond's resignation makes sense now. Nicola Sturgeon must have known she was leader when she gave that interview at 05.30 and went off message. She started framing her answers as if she was calling the shots now. My first reaction was that she was mounting a challenge. She was asked about it, but made some excuse about being tired (tired she wasn't - she was full of energy and was jumping in a car to shoot along the M8)
Perhap Salmond can take over from Clare Balding now on the Morning Line
EC1
On a break
politician doesn't deliver on promises..has this happened before?
EC1
On a break
him and Mandelson
Not sure it has, politicians are for the most part normally quite honest and fine upstanding individuals, and Cameron went to Eton and has a Scottish name of course.
I did laugh when I saw who he'd put in charge of progressing the whole thing. That was the first smart move he's managed in months. If you want to kill something in its tracks and ensure nothing gets done, ask William Hague to lead on it. I think you can safely assume nothing will happen this side of the election be it deliberately or not.
EC1
On a break
that would be a shame
before i watched the docu on Murray..it will be on you tube somewhere..i couldn't stand her...but if you see her on the docu i think most people would change their minds about her.
she is really nice woman..does a lot for young people in Dunblane
some complete moron has tweeted that Murray should have died at Dunblane..what world are we living in? Police are looking in to it apparently
Desert Orchid
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BBC Scotland reporting that in the last half hour "Loyalist elements" converged in a "well-planned" manner on George Square and started scuffles with Yes voters. The police have moved in to separate the groups. One group is singing Flower Of Scotland, the other Rule Britannia (the significance of which is well known up here).
Makes me wish I'd voted Yes.
Makes me wish I'd voted Yes.
Flagship uberalles
Journeyman
Evens that the majority of loyalists are from NI.