The Debate

It wasn't just a query, it was the way she said it. These and those and them. I live up here and you can just tell.
 
I agree with Bar and others. Brown called it right and should have been celebrated for it in the media. The woman came across as a bigot.
 
Fat chance DO. There was an odious little shit from The Times having a go again last night on Newsnight. I know everyone has no time for politicians or bankers these days but i'd sooner have either than the lackeys who suck the Murdoch tit and still try and pontificate about what's right and wrong.

EDIT: Talking about Murdoch's bitches inevitably reminds me of Littlejohn


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGAOCVwLrXo
 
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The woman came across as a bigot.
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So anyone who queries immigration is automatically a bigot then?

whether anyone likes the way she put it across or not, she did not slag off eastern europeans or make any generlisations about them. But she was perfectly justified in mentioning that that is the area where the heaviest immgration and pressure on private sector jobs comes from. What the hell is wrong with that?

If someone has been put under pressure by polish accountants/plumbers/whatever coming on the market, are they simply supposed to stay silent on the issue for fear of being branded racist or xenophobic?

No doubt the left would want that to be the case, but then again they are not exactly great fans of free speech at the best of times

Perhaps if the job losses and reduced wage expectations had hit the cosseted (and hopefully soon to be heavily attacked) public sector then there would be a different tune?

I am largely in favour of a free labour market (and the left are so economically illiterate that they cannot see that the greatest beneficiaries of the influx have been the business owners), but it is complete head in the sand stuff not to believe that this has created real issues for many and they have every right to raise the isssue without being branded in the usual left wing sloganising way by idiot Guardian readers and supposedly leading politicians
 
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As others have mentioned, it was the way it was worded. She didn't just say 'immigrants', she said 'eastern Europeans'. She specified a group, singled it out for attack. 50 years ago, it would have been 'Jamaicans' or 'Pakistanis'. 100 years ago it would have been 'Irish'. And it would have been equally abhorrent.
 
clivex said:
Typical left wing crap. No wonder they are losing votes to the BNP in droves. No party is more out of touch with working class concerns than the left is it?
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Apart from the Tory party of course, who have never given a flying f*** for the working class.
 
Desert Orchid said:
As others have mentioned, it was the way it was worded. She didn't just say 'immigrants', she said 'eastern Europeans'. She specified a group, singled it out for attack. 50 years ago, it would have been 'Jamaicans' or 'Pakistanis'. 100 years ago it would have been 'Irish'. And it would have been equally abhorrent.
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Indeed it would be but the difference now is that instead of those attitudes always being subscribed to by the supposed right, it's quite evidently a core belief of many staunch Labour voters, both 'old & 'new' ... as well as probably many Tory and Lib-Dem voters - it's unfortunately human nature.
 
Desert Orchid said:
As others have mentioned, it was the way it was worded. She didn't just say 'immigrants', she said 'eastern Europeans'. She specified a group, singled it out for attack. 50 years ago, it would have been 'Jamaicans' or 'Pakistanis'. 100 years ago it would have been 'Irish'. And it would have been equally abhorrent.
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With all due respect this seems like political correctness gone mad. Unfortunately not everyone (especially 'senior citizens' in the North it seems) can word every view or opinion how the more diplomatic one's would like, but isn't that quite refreshing? That sometimes you get moments when the PM gets to meet a real voter and that voter lets her views be known without dumbing her views down for the camera's?

My nan often uses phrases like Mrs Duffy but she knows if she does ever say anything racist or wrong I will correct and challenge her use of language. The fact Brown didn't have the bottle or honour to correct Mrs Duffy to her face about anything he may have deemed 'bigotted' highlights what a two-faced backstabber he is. She came out with her views out in the open in front of everyone, he had to wait until he got in his Jag before he was brave enough to air his.
 
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Genuine question - how many seats do they have and how many are they expected to get?
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None thank god

They have about 70 council seats (out of thousands) and a couple of euro seats but fortunately (unlike most continental countries) the appetite for extremist views (left or right) remains very limited in the UK
 
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martin said:
With all due respect this seems like political correctness gone mad.
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It's not PC gone mad. We've had immigration for centuries and immigrants have borne the brunt of bigotry since the first one set foot.

martin said:
Unfortunately not everyone (especially 'senior citizens' in the North it seems) can word every view or opinion how the more diplomatic one's would like, but isn't that quite refreshing?
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No, it's not. It's the opposite. What would be refreshing would be if senior citizens realised they can't express bigoted views with impunity.


martin said:
My nan often uses phrases like Mrs Duffy.
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So does my mother-in-law, who lives with us. She doesn't trust anyone but 'her ain kind'. She is bigoted but would never accept that she is. She'd be horrified if she were accused of it but she is. As was my father. As were so many of that generation. Not being aware of it doesn't mean they're not bigoted.

martin said:
The fact Brown didn't have the bottle or honour to correct Mrs Duffy to her face about anything he may have deemed 'bigotted' highlights what a two-faced backstabber he is.
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Any politician of any persuasion would have been in a no-win situation there. Can you imagine what the media would have done if Brown had said live on TV to the old bat, "Look, Mrs D, what you're saying is bigoted..."??

The only mistake Brown made was not removing his mike.
 
What would be refreshing would be if senior citizens realised they can't express bigoted views with impunity.
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Where did she express a "bigoted" view?

By pointing out where the greatest influx of immigration is from is "bigoted"?

Thats ridiculous
 
Thanks Clive - just when you said they are going "in droves" I thought they had seats and expected to get more.

clivex said:
None thank god

They have about 70 council seats (out of thousands) and a couple of euro seats but fortunately (unlike most continental countries) the appetite for extremist views (left or right) remains very limited in the UK
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I'm with Martin, though, on it being right (Christ! - I've just spotted AN CAPALL on board! Hallooo, there, me hearty! Luv ya!) - er, where was I (I'm an OAP, so likely to be dimwitted, of course) - oh, yes. It was right that Brown didn't meet some pre-selected sycophant. He fumed about why one of his aides had presented him with 'that', which makes me think that he has his public filtered before he meets them. Yes, of course it's absolutely right that politicos meet 'real' people (as against, presumably, some sort of polymer-based ones), warts and all. We live in a democracy, we're constantly told, where we all have the right to express ourselves, however brilliantly coruscating or dismally offensive those expressions might be. It's the reason we have Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park, the reason why countless bigots from other countries can come here and spout off any amount of venom against their host country (or any other) and its people. Democracy is a stage for all and any views. Suppress the views you don't like, and you end up with civil wars, underground movements, and the wilder swings to Left or Right which are usually reserved for South American despotry.
 
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The woman is entitled to her opinion. I'm not denying that. I'm saying her opinion betrayed a bigotry. Brown called it as he saw it.
 
Galileo said:
Thanks Clive - just when you said they are going "in droves" I thought they had seats and expected to get more.
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The BNP will secretly be hoping for a hung parliament followed by someone doing a deal with the Lib Dems involving electoral reform as like all small parties they haven't much hope under the current system.
 
Regrettably, it's Labour's dilatory management over its entire reign of the farcical illegal entries, the endless lost confidential Home Office documentations and the number of high-profile murders by illegal non-immigrants that have flung some people into the arms of a fascist-leaning organisation. They know they haven't been listened to, they have real concerns that not really skilled and needed people are coming in in droves - pickpocketing Romanians, exploitative Eastern Europeans trafficking young girls for sex, North Africans, the Russian 'Mafia' hoovering up half of London, murdering nutcases let loose from real asylums, you name it. The Press has covered so much that's been negative for so long, all under Labour, that you can't help but understand some of the swing, in revulsion, from its laxity. The fact that the swing goes too far the other way is the result of what is seen to be a loss of control of national sovereignty. Once you give every indication that your country is some sort of free-for-all for other countries' rejects, its impoverished, its unskilled and its downright criminal elements, and that you can't control your boundaries, you play right into the hands of those who would love to employ a bit of rigid repression. Speaking of which, all the time that Labour has lost control of the wider picture, it's micro-managed the national population to death with thousands more laws, thousands more CCTVs, having taken more police off visible work, thus creating the demand for more surveilling. So on the one hand they have managed a rather creative double act of letting the really important issues slip and slide, while giving the illusion of control (but really only of the law-abiding population, for all the use surveillance has been in bringing effective prosecutions). Quite a feat for any government!
 
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But Krizon, the biggest swing seen in the polls is to the Lib Dems - who are the most pro-EU party of the lot, want to give an amnesty to immigrants, and are the worst nightmare of the majority of "The Press".
 
Interesting point, Gareth. I think the fact that the tories have been ahead in the polls (before they got The Sun's backing as well) for a while now indicates that the picture Krizon paints is a pretty accurate one.

I don't put the increasing Lib Dem vote to anything but a opportunistic Nick Clegg (possibly good media-man Cable too) and the idea that for many people voting for Cameron is like voting for Tony Blair times-two (which people can't stomach); and certainly not down to the Lib Dems semi-pro immigration stance or pro-european policies. I would of thought that's where they'll lose people left right and centre of all persuasions.

People like them at the moment as they seem to offer a more libetarian stance on most issues than the tories, whilst still hurting Labour like the tories on all the key issues including the economy and public spending.

And for fear of writing on behalf on Krizon I'll shut up!
 
The lib dems "regional immigration" policy was pretty laughable too. You are right Martin. The idea that their relative recent success had anything to do with their asylum policies is very far fetched. But they are presnting a viable alternative in many voters eyes

The key question could soon be...what now for labour?

I did laugh today at the news that Brown will hang on until the autumn to prevent Harperson taking over. So he should..... and would deserve acclaim for doing so...bt what will come after that? Will the left try to retake the party and thus send it into electoral oblivion?
 
Oh, please do write for me, Martin! You're probably much more up-to-date than I am with what's what. I'm really rather ignorant of what the main differences are between the Big Three - when I used to vote LibDem, years ago, there was much more of a distinction between all three policies. Now, our local Labour council is so worried about the Cons getting in, that a recent flyer through the door shrieked "A vote for the Greens is a vote for the Tories!" How desperate is that!
 
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