The Debate

Having spent my working week in the only tory constituency (and the MP is a typically slimy moneyed b&stert) it was refreshing to get home to test the water up here.

The overwhelming feeling is basically that the tories must never be allowed any say in Scotland ever again after Thatcher. There's a lot of positivism about the prospect of the tories and libdems getting together. The feeling up here is that it would be the end of the line for both parties as they'd make a total &rse of everything and ensure that Labour will landslide it next time round.

As I said before, incredible how two countries separated by no more than a realtively narrow river can have such polarised views.
 
I am disapppointed in the number of people,on the radio, on tv and on here who base their vote on what is best for them. How can people who vote on that basis moan when politicans act in their own best interest. Surely one should vote to elect the best party/person in one's opinion for the community/country.

Eqully disappointing are the voters of the Maggie did that so vote Labour or Blair did that so vote Tory varieties. Last Sunday I delivered leaflets on behalf of one of the parties howvever whenever I met a person who said that they supported a different party I still encouraged them to vote as it is important for democracy.

FWIW I think a hung parliament is severely damaging for this this country.
 
one of the things that has altered the results is definately the expenses business

in my town the lib dem lost by 500 votes..to labour..he did have a 3000+ majority..without him being high on the expenses bandwagon he would have won..i'm sure quite a few MP's have gone because of that..rightly so in some cases...but it has skewed the results
 
Tout Seul said:
I am disapppointed in the number of people,on the radio, on tv and on here who base their vote on what is best for them. How can people who vote on that basis moan when politicans act in their own best interest. Surely one should vote to elect the best party/person in one's opinion for the community/country.
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Well said TS!

Enough of this 'I'm alright Jack' sh1t.
 
What's the score now then? Cameron would be signing his political death warrant if he agreed to the electoral reform the Lib Dems are likely to demand surely. Will Clegg back down on the electoral reform demands? Would he accept a referendum offer with Cameron allowed to campaign against? Given his flat referendum position on the EU it might well tally.

So many questions at this stage.
 
The big plus is that Cameron can now be nothing other than a failure.

The tories had the most wonderful opportunity virtually in a generation to command a mandate and couldn't make it. Cameron failed to deliver and now has to go crawling to the Lib Dems.

He is a laughing stock. He even invaded Jim Murphy's patch the other night arrrogantly expecting his candidate to topple the guy and failed miserably. The tories were laughed out of Scotland yet again.

People up here are loving it.
 
i just pray that tories and libs join up..lets see just how good all this bollox talk they have been doing amounts to.


the problem is that the grass root tories do not want a pact..90% of them want to govern in minority..they are also not happy about the campaign that the upper tories inflicted on them...underneath there is a lot of discord in the tory party between grass root and the upper echelons
 
its making me laugh..they have folk on saying they voted Tory..so they pleased with result...its the worse result for the tories..ever

i'll bet Brown was praying for a Tory majority..praying for it...just to escape..this is a better result...he will certainly be laughing his arse off now..he's finished as leader but he has inflicted the next 12 months on both the other parties if they do have a pact...and how the fickle public are going to be blaming the current government when the cuts come...cuts that the tories daren't admit they are going to make

this could ensure Labour's success for the next 10 years..after the next election in about 12 months time

its actually one of labours finest hours
 
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EC1 said:
its making me laugh..they have folk on saying they voted Tory..so they pleased with result...its the worse result for the tories..ever

i'll bet Brown was praying for a Tory majority..praying for it...just to escape..this is a better result...he will certainly be laughing his arse off now..he's finished as leader but he has inflicted the next 12 months on both the other parties if they do have a pact...and how the fickle public are going to be blaming the current government when the cuts come...cuts that the tories daren't admit they are going to make

this could ensure Labour's success for the next 10 years..after the next election in about 12 months time

its actually one of labours finest hours
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That's pretty much the consensus up here :)
 
I don't know why you're so insufferably smug, DO - why didn't you support Salmond and the SNP? God knows you (the Scots) have been caterwauling long enough for your independence, and yet there you sit, deserting your very own party, and discussing the main ones as if they have any relevance to Scotland.

What a load of bollocks about 'he's finished as a leader but he has inflicted the next 12 months on both the other parties (and the smaller ones)... " as if that horror is some badge of office to be proud of? He's left a shambles behind for others to clean up, nothing that anyone ought to be grinning about. You cannot possibly blame the cuts to come on anyone but Labour's imbecilic mismanagement. When will people learn that a Labour government is always a disaster for the economy?
 
EC1 said:
the problem is that the grass root tories do not want a pact..90% of them want to govern in minority..they are also not happy about the campaign that the upper tories inflicted on them...underneath there is a lot of discord in the tory party between grass root and the upper echelons
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I don't think it's time to follow your 'grass roots' over a cliff to be frank.
 
While I don't agree with Clive's actual tone, to me it looks like it's now time for massive electoral reform, whereby the final steps are taken for each individual country making up the UK to be self-governing, with a two tier parliament.
 
EC1 said:
its making me laugh..they have folk on saying they voted Tory..so they pleased with result...its the worse result for the tories..ever

i'll bet Brown was praying for a Tory majority..praying for it...just to escape..this is a better result...he will certainly be laughing his arse off now..he's finished as leader but he has inflicted the next 12 months on both the other parties if they do have a pact...and how the fickle public are going to be blaming the current government when the cuts come...cuts that the tories daren't admit they are going to make

this could ensure Labour's success for the next 10 years..after the next election in about 12 months time

its actually one of labours finest hours
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summing up
you think people are stupid and will think all bad things to happen are because of the tories,
you could right but it is pathetic.
 
th
is could ensure Labour's success for the next 10 years..after the next election in about 12 months time

its actually one of labours finest hours
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This is absolute rubbish

The public is well aware that the cuts will be coming and are braced for them. In fact if they go after the pay and the huge number of pointless jobs and laughable bureaucracy within the public sector, they will gain quite a bit of respect from the productive economy. If the cuts are not felt by the majority of the population (which is probable) and the economy turns around quickly (quite possible), then the tories will end up taking a huge amount of credit. Rightly or wrongly

Apart from that, the cuts (wherever they happen) will not be felt by most of the country for some time to come.

As for Scotland, I want to know why they continue to be overrepresented in westminster. Why MPs there were getting in with 17000 votes whilst in my constituency the first and second got 30 and 20k respectively? Scanning the results, this is the pattern right across the region

I agree with Krizon.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tout Seul
I am disapppointed in the number of people,on the radio, on tv and on here who base their vote on what is best for them. How can people who vote on that basis moan when politicans act in their own best interest. Surely one should vote to elect the best party/person in one's opinion for the community/country.

Well said TS!

Enough of this 'I'm alright Jack' sh1t.
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I agree. The clear priority is to address the defcit and get the economy up and running

I would have hoped that teachers, GPs, firemen, council "race" advisors, tax collectors and so on voted for the party that was likely to cut salaries, end job security and curtail the bloated pensions within the public sector.
 
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clivex said:
th

This is absolute rubbish

The public is well aware that the cuts will be coming and are braced for them. In fact if they go after the pay and the huge number of pointless jobs and laughable bureaucracy within the public sector, they will gain quite a bit of respect from the productive economy. If the cuts are not felt by the majority of the population (which is probable) and the economy turns around quickly (quite possible), then the tories will end up taking a huge amount of credit. Rightly or wrongly

Apart from that, the cuts (wherever they happen) will not be felt by most of the country for some time to come.

As for Scotland, I want to know why they continue to be overrepresented in westminster. Why MPs there were getting in with 17000 votes whilst in my constituency the first and second got 30 and 20k respectively? Scanning the results, this is the pattern right across the region

I agree with Krizon.
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if the public are so accepting of bad news how come each patry only told about 15% of the bad news before the election?..if you are right then the party that actually told it like its going to be would have earned respect and power..the fact they have hidden the real mess we aare in suggests they know the public aren't as accepting as you think they will be..people have short memories..particularly when times are bad..6 months is a long time when things are crap.
 
clivex said:
The public is well aware that the cuts will be coming and are braced for them.
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I'd say this is generally true.

In fact if they go after the pay and the huge number of pointless jobs and laughable bureaucracy within the public sector, they will gain quite a bit of respect from the productive economy.
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Probably true again, but 'respect' isn't going to help pay the deficit. Limited relevance, I reckon.

If the cuts are not felt by the majority of the population (which is probable)....
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Not at all convinced that this will be the case.

.....and the economy turns around quickly (quite possible), then the tories will end up taking a huge amount of credit. Rightly or wrongly
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Much more likely to be a very protracted recovery, imo, with equilibrium and forward momentum not restored early enough to reflect positively on the (soon-to-be) encumbent administration.


Apart from that, the cuts (wherever they happen) will not be felt by most of the country for some time to come.
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Far too generous an interpretation. Most people in this country are already feeling the pain. It's not like we reset the clock on the current problems at 10pm on Thursday. A bad situation is only going to get worse for the next 4 years (regardless of who governs).

As for Scotland, I want to know why they continue to be overrepresented in westminster. Why MPs there were getting in with 17000 votes whilst in my constituency the first and second got 30 and 20k respectively? Scanning the results, this is the pattern right across the region
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Geographic displacement. Only a real muppet wouldn't figure that out. :p

I agree with Krizon.
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As regards Brown, then yes. As regards the suggestion that all Scots a) want independence, b) have "caterwauled" about it for ages, and c) hold the same opinion as DO on the election outcome, then I'm compelled to disagree.

Cameron - and those Tories with fully functioning neural pathways - should agree to a PR referendum. Do that, and they are pretty much assured of being a senior partner in every future coalition Government. I genuinely believe Labour would be finished under a PR system.
 
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krizon said:
I don't know why you're so insufferably smug, DO - why didn't you support Salmond and the SNP? God knows you (the Scots) have been caterwauling long enough for your independence, and yet there you sit, deserting your very own party, and discussing the main ones as if they have any relevance to Scotland.
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I don't support Alex Salmond or the SNP because I don't believe they have Scotland's best interests at heart. They will obviously claim they do but I don't believe independence is a good thing for Scotland, although I would consider voting for it if I ended up stuck with the Home County party.

I have never ever asked for independence. I have consistently proffered the view that independence isn't good for Scotland. The UK is stronger with Scotland and Scotland is stronger as part of a fair UK.

Get back in your box.
 
Apart from that, the cuts (wherever they happen) will not be felt by most of the country for some time to come.
Far too generous an interpretation. Most people in this country are already feeling the pain
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Bur are they feeling goverment cuts yet? Thats the real issue

You are probably right about a stop start recovery. In fact I would definately bend towards that scenario given the condition of the southern european economies and whilst cuts are probably necessary to reduce the deficit over time, the effects will reverberate throughout the economy

As for Scotland, I wouldnt mind so much but because of the standard daily diet of 40 fags, three bottles of tonic wine and six deep fried bounty bars with chips and curry sauce, the NHS spending up there is through the roof

The only booming sector of the economy is gravedigging
 
Desert Orchid said:
I don't support Alex Salmond or the SNP because I don't believe they have Scotland's best interests at heart. They will obviously claim they do but I don't believe independence is a good thing for Scotland, although I would consider voting for it if I ended up stuck with the Home County party.

I have never ever asked for independence. I have consistently proffered the view that independence isn't good for Scotland. The UK is stronger with Scotland and Scotland is stronger as part of a fair UK.

Get back in your box.
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However, DO, the majority of your fellow countrymen clearly do consider that Scotland should be independent as far as governing themselves go but also want to be able to determine how England is governed. I don't find that acceptable. It's great that a democratically elected majority of the SNP can determine your life choices but it isn't OK that they can align with whoever they think will oppose the democratically elected majority party in England.

And before the well-worn argument of revenue from Scotland's energy sources and alcohol comes winging back my way, believe me when I say I'd happily contra that income against the RBS debt that we're currently paying off !!
 
Songsheet said:
And before the well-worn argument of revenue from Scotland's energy sources and alcohol comes winging back my way, believe me when I say I'd happily contra that income against the RBS debt that we're currently paying off !!
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We are not paying off RBS debt, Songsheet - we have taken a majority stake in the bank to keep it afloat, which is a different thing altogether. Theoretically, the taxpayer could have made a small profit on the RBS deal, if HMG had offloaded it's shareholding two weeks ago, when they were hovering around 53p-54p a skull (though I acknowledge that fire-sale prices would have applied, if they pushed 70-odd percent of the company onto the market).
 
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